Disbanding the Seanad, is it time?

[Lamps]

In this trying times, everyone is looking to cut costs. I was wondering what is it costing to keep the Seanad open, paying senators, their expenses, their staff, the cost of admin, etc etc etc. I'm going to pick a completly random figure here and say 20 million plus a year is what we'd save (60 members, a hundred grand a year, 50 grand expenses, plus other staff, plus admin costs, plus hidden costs)

I think it could be a nice bit of PR on the govts behalf to rid us of this huge unelected jobs for the bots waste of money. Can anyone tell me what they actually do?
For my sins I've watched oireacthas report a few times and I'm lost as to its purpose and use?
We are a tiny country, over represented already in the Dail, why do we need to be throwing money into a black hole like this year after year?

[Red Star Hardkore]

This link (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/08/18/story70068.asp) doesn't give the cost of the Seanad alone but does give both the Dail and Seanad together, and judging from that I'd say it's more than 20m.

It's a great idea and all that but you know the gov will never do it. Even if they did the would be Senators would just be appointed to some money wasting role on some board that they know nothing about.

[Actin The Sham]

Great idea, abolish the seanad now.


It's a complete waste of time, money, and space. They should also reduce the numbers of TDs from 166 to a 80. If we have a population of 4 million, then that would mean that we would have a representation of 50,000 per TD which seems about fair to me.

To be honest, I don't know why we have multiple representatives from each constituency anyway, we could have a big reduction and I doubt if we would notice any change. Most td's go to the dáil to be canon fodder for their dublin based parties, which means that both government and opposition backbenchers are for the most part irrelevant.

And with recent increases in salary, the starting pay for a TD is now €100,061 per annum, plus expenses, plus allowances, plus pension.

[Actin The Sham]

For comparison, our nearest neighbour has 647 MPs for a population 15 times bigger than ours, (60 Million).

By that reckoning, if they were the same as us, they should have 2490 MPs.


No wonder the country is in the state it's in.

;)

[Arcadia]

The Seanad is a massive waste of money and a largely talking shop or reward for failed politicians - if they like each other that much the can still meet up and debate in some hotel somewhere on their own time.Shane Ross & David Norris are witty eloquent speakers etc but utterly pointless and unecessary to the real world.Let them run for the Dail if they wish - turf them out on the street.

Fewer T.D's ( Cork will notice any difference in service anyway ).
Lose some Junior Ministers and Ministers for State.

[northmallexile]

How's about a Seanad along the American model? Directly elected, and two from each county, thus providing a counter-balance to the hold Dublin has over the rest of the country. Give it a few real powers as well.

(This is just speculative, by the way. No idea how you'd pay for it.)

[RizzlaRebel]

Interersting maybe our Senead member of the board, DBTD, could fill us in on exactly what they do???

Would wholeheartedly agree that there are way too many TDs in this country comparitive to its population. Might take a lot of the parish pump politics, this country renowned for, out of the equation as well.

[Lamps]

For comparison, our nearest neighbour has 647 MPs for a population 15 times bigger than ours, (60 Million).

By that reckoning, if they were the same as us, they should have 2490 MPs.


No wonder the country is in the state it's in.

;)

I'm serious about this Nimic, you start the Cork party and I'll get you shitloads of votes from the Hane and Togher (not so sure about my new area of Dugger as I don't know as many people). There's a huge untapped popular vote out there waiting for the right party that mixes common sense with a geunine interest in promoting cork.

[Arcadia]

I'm serious about this Nimic, you start the Cork party and I'll get you shitloads of votes from the Hane and Togher (not so sure about my new area of Dugger as I don't know as many people). There's a huge untapped popular vote out there waiting for the right party that mixes common sense with a geunine interest in promoting cork.

Good idea and just needs someone smart to do it.

Cork has been poorly served by elected reps nevermind the seanad.

I made sure that a sizeable few people avoided John Dennehy at the last poll.

"CORK FIRST" or "FORZA CORK"

Cork is largly ignored by the despised Dublin Administration and Cork people deserve better especially the vast majority of its citizens who have not prospered from the tiger years.

Time to get parochial and look after our own.

[Actin The Sham]

I'm serious about this Nimic, you start the Cork party and I'll get you shitloads of votes from the Hane and Togher (not so sure about my new area of Dugger as I don't know as many people). There's a huge untapped popular vote out there waiting for the right party that mixes common sense with a geunine interest in promoting cork.

I'd be on for it alright before the local elections next year, but I think we'd need somebody who knows all about wards, and elections and transfers and stuff as well, maybe jd26, he seems to know a lot about that stuff. Then we could figure out who to run, and where, and what the policy would be.

We would have to think of a catchy name as well. I was thinking of The Cork Party, but that sounds like TCP which is a mouthwash or something like listerine.

I think we could harness a lot of support, but we would have to start with a blank canvas: all men and women are equal, we aren't socialist or capitalist, or republican or liberal, we are just interested in what's best for Cork. We could get three or four seats on the corporation, on the basis that we were not using it as a stepping stone to the dáil, but rather to break the stranglehold of dublin based parties.

[Red Star Hardkore]

I'd be up for joining that lads. I've been looking for a political party to affiliate with but can never find one that exactly suits my beliefs, not just left<->right but also on the libertarian<->authoritarian scale.

A party that exists exclusively for the benefit of Cork sounds good to me though.

[Actin The Sham]

I'd be up for joining that lads. I've been looking for a political party to affiliate with but can never find one that exactly suits my beliefs, not just left<->right but also on the libertarian<->authoritarian scale.

A party that exists exclusively for the benefit of Cork sounds good to me though.

Well, maybe we should start promoting the idea then. I get the impression that I would hold diametrically opposed views to you on world matters, and also I would probably be more right wing then you, but I think it's important that if we all do get together and run candidates that we make the as you say "We Exist Exclusively For The Benefit Of Cork," expression a core value.




And if you could do web design, we could get the electoral register from the city hall, and contact everyone on it. We should spend a few weeks planning before a public launch, so that we could take advantage of the inevitable publicity such a launch would bring. I'm thinking old fashioned political rallies in the city centre, for example, with bands playing on the back of an artic trailer, etc., and ramming home the parochial nature of our campaign. We should also target weak sitting councillors and ensure that negative decisions they made are highlighted.

[pudgee]

Well, maybe we should start promoting the idea then. I get the impression that I would hold diametrically opposed views to you on world matters, and also I would probably be more right wing then you, but I think it's important that if we all do get together and run candidates that we make the as you say "We Exist Exclusively For The Benefit Of Cork," expression a core value.




And if you could do web design, we could get the electoral register from the city hall, and contact everyone on it. We should spend a few weeks planning before a public launch, so that we could take advantage of the inevitable publicity such a launch would bring. I'm thinking old fashioned political rallies in the city centre, for example, with bands playing on the back of an artic trailer, etc., and ramming home the parochial nature of our campaign. We should also target weak sitting councillors and ensure that negative decisions they made are highlighted.

Just as an experiment, ye should stand a candidate in a constituency outside Cork.

[Actin The Sham]

Just as an experiment, ye should stand a candidate in a constituency outside Cork.

Under the Cork Party banner?

Why do you think we should do that?

[pudgee]

Under the Cork Party banner?

Why do you think we should do that?

Think of it this way; if you lose, nothing is really lost: It's not like non-Corkonians would be expected to vote Cork.

if you win, the gain is huge. Essentially, it proves that being pro-Cork is not merely self-interest. People in other parts of Ireland recognise the importance of Cork's interests as well.

[Actin The Sham]

Think of it this way; if you lose, nothing is really lost: It's not like non-Corkonians would be expected to vote Cork.

if you win, the gain is huge. Essentially, it proves that being pro-Cork is not merely self-interest. People in other parts of Ireland recognise the importance of Cork's interests as well.

Good point. But what if running a candidate outside Cork diluted the whole "parochialism is good" message?

I would imagine that within a few weeks of us running, other similar groups would pop up all over the country, which is why it is important to remain focused. The result of the Lisbon referendum would indicate to me that there is a marked distrust of politicians out there, so I think that being honest and portraying Dublin as worse than Brussels would touch a nerve amongst Cork voters who voted no and yes in the Lisbon treaty referendum.

The no voters were told what to do by Belfast, Galway, and Dublin based organisations, and the yes voters were told what to do by mainly Dublin and Brussels based organisations.

My message would be, "take Cork for granted at your peril from now on."

[Red Star Hardkore]

I get the impression that I would hold diametrically opposed views to you on world matters, and also I would probably be more right wing then you, but I think it's important that if we all do get together and run candidates that we make the as you say "We Exist Exclusively For The Benefit Of Cork," expression a core value.

I am a supporter of Marxism in theory and I do believe that someday real marxism will naturally occur but I am not a supporter of the 'short-circuit' system. I believe that while history takes it's course marxism will eventually and naturally come into play. That's why I am not a member of any left wing parties. Trying to convert Ireland to any form of marxism at the moment would be disastrous of epic proportions. Although my beliefs for the way Ireland should be run do lean left, it certainly wouldn't be far left. We have progressed to far to the right to make such a sudden and dramatic change. I also do take some right wing values into consideration. I don't believe that left and right should be so rigid that you can't mix a bit.

And if you could do web design, we could get the electoral register from the city hall, and contact everyone on it. We should spend a few weeks planning before a public launch, so that we could take advantage of the inevitable publicity such a launch would bring. I'm thinking old fashioned political rallies in the city centre, for example, with bands playing on the back of an artic trailer, etc., and ramming home the parochial nature of our campaign. We should also target weak sitting councillors and ensure that negative decisions they made are highlighted.

As for the web design, I would be delighted to make a website. I also design for print. I'm qualified in multimedia so I also have experience with video and audio production.

[pudgee]

"I believe that while history takes it's course marxism will eventually and naturally come into play"

And this will occur how?

[Ciotóg]

I disagree. I think we should continue to elect Cork representatives from the Dublin-based parties. I think Cork should aspire to be more like Dublin. Dublin is cool because it's got gigs, happening stuff, Kilmainham, Guinness, and the Luas. And redabbey lives there and he's cool too.

[pudgee]

"I believe that while history takes it's course marxism will eventually and naturally come into play"

And this will occur how?

And what even is a 'Marxist' society. Marxism is an analysis, not a model. Communism is what emerges.

Jesus Christ.

[Tube a Pringles]

"I believe that while history takes it's course marxism will eventually and naturally come into play"

And this will occur how?


Some sort of Nuclear Winter?

[Actin The Sham]

I disagree. I think we should continue to elect Cork representatives from the Dublin-based parties. I think Cork should aspire to be more like Dublin. Dublin is cool because it's got gigs, happening stuff, Kilmainham, Guinness, and the Luas. And redabbey lives there and he's cool too.

Do you know anything?


It's not the "luas," it's the "Danny Day."


Sheesh.

And it only became cool when redabbey moved there.

[Red Star Hardkore]

"I believe that while history takes it's course marxism will eventually and naturally come into play"

And this will occur how?

As the wealthy and powerful keep getting richer and more powerful the poor will get poorer. As the divide grows more the middle class will begin to shrink and eventually disappear leaving only two classes with everybody either on the upper class side or the working class side. The upper class exploit the working class to make themselves richer but don't realise they have nothing if they don't have the working class. The workers do realise that and then revolt, setting up a classless socialist state.

And what even is a 'Marxist' society. Marxism is an analysis, not a model. Communism is what emerges.

Jesus Christ.

Marxism is a an ideology. Yes, Communism is the end result but there are certain stages before Communism is reached. Jesus Christ was some guy who lived about 2,000 years ago who was great at telling a few stories.

[pudgee]

As the wealthy and powerful keep getting richer and more powerful the poor will get poorer. As the divide grows more the middle class will begin to shrink and eventually disappear leaving only two classes with everybody either on the upper class side or the working class side. The upper class exploit the working class to make themselves richer but don't realise they have nothing if they don't have the working class. The workers do realise that and then revolt, setting up a classless socialist state.



Oh dear.
Leaving aside the completely skewed class analysis here, what you are actively willing is for the situation of the proletariat to worsen. Meanwhile, as this happens, your proposed lack of left activism means the proletariat has no actual awareness of socialism. So how does this revolution happen again?

[percysleftballock]

Oh dear.
Leaving aside the completely skewed class analysis here, what you are actively willing is for the situation of the proletariat to worsen. Meanwhile, as this happens, your proposed lack of left activism means the proletariat has no actual awareness of socialism. So how does this revolution happen again?

As an inevitable consequence of the historical dialectic. You might as well battle the waves. Problem was, Lenin and the boys screwed it up by trying to bring it about. The only political course consistent with true Marxist theory is quietism. :vamp:

[pudgee]

As an inevitable consequence of the historical dialectic. You might as well battle the waves. Problem was, Lenin and the boys screwed it up by trying to bring it about. The only political course consistent with true Marxist theory is quietism. :vamp:

Not true. The historical inevitability thing is a myth. The dialectic does not just happen by itself.

[Red Star Hardkore]

You have to leave history take it's course. As I said, I'm not a fan of the 'short-circuit' system of the Bolsheviks. The situation for the proletariat has to worsen for Communism to natrually come into effect. That is why I refuse to affiliate with any left wing party.

In Russia, China and other countries that turned Communist (albeit they were/are not even real communist) by revolutionary means there was more than two classes. There was the bourgeoisie, the petit bourgeoisie, the proletariat, and the serfs. Communism can only be successfully realised when only the bourgeoise and the proletariat remain. In our country and most modern western countries we really only have three classes at the moment. They are the bourgeoisie, the petit bourgeoisie and the proletariat, although the proletariat can be still broken into two subclasses; the proletariat, the lumpenproletariat. If history is let run it's course I believe that we will eventually only have the minority but powerful bourgeoisie and the vast majority but weak proletariat.

[percysleftballock]

Not true. The historical inevitability thing is a myth. The dialectic does not just happen by itself.

Of course it is a myth (or if you're feeling generous, a theory). One propounded by Hegel and (in its variant heretical form) by Marx.

Truth doesn't really come into it.

[pudgee]

"You have to leave history take it's course"

History doesn't have a pre-ordained course. Belief in the inevitability of proletarian revolution, without any effort to actually organise the working classes, is beyond Utopian. It's positively Narnian.

[pudgee]

Of course it is a myth (or if you're feeling generous, a theory). One propounded by Hegel and (in its variant heretical form) by Marx.

Truth doesn't really come into it.

The dialectic is a theory. The historical inevitability of socialism is a myth. And the notion that socialism will happen without working class organisation is a dangerous fantasy.

[percysleftballock]

The dialectic is a theory. The historical inevitability of socialism is a myth. And the notion that socialism will happen without working class organisation is a dangerous fantasy.

And meanwhile the working class is vanishing fast...

While we're pettifogging, the dialectic is a process, and the conjecture that the dialetic is heading somewhere definite does not, I think, qualify as theory. More like theology.

[pudgee]

And meanwhile the working class is vanishing fast...

While we're pettifogging, the dialectic is a process, and the conjecture that the dialetic is heading somewhere definite does not, I think, qualify as theory. More like theology.

that's pretty much what I just said. The working class isn't 'disappearing' though.

[juan pablo]

Sorry to interrupt the debate on Marxism or establishing a Cork Lega Nord but the Seanad is long overdue for reform.

There have been plenty of Reports over the years on Seanad reform but they are ignored.(the most recent in 2004).

The current system of Taosieachs nominee's, panel appointments and University constituencies is anti democratic and makes it irrelevant to the general population, but of course it is very handy for political patronage.

Of course the Seanad has limited powers anyway bar the ability to delay certain bills, like Local Government it is a victim of the centralisation of powers.

In other countries with Bicameral legislatures the upper house is usually elected by the population through a different system to the lower house, this is a model that should be implemented here. Maybe through regional or national list systems, whatever really anything to stimulate interest in the Seanad beyond the political classes.

Of course this is the kind of reform that should have been implemented during the good times, now the country is struggling its time to focus back on the basic issues.

[percysleftballock]

that's pretty much what I just said. The working class isn't 'disappearing' though.

It is from the first world, as we externalise the industrial proletariat.

[Actin The Sham]

Sorry to interrupt the debate on Marxism or establishing a Cork Lega Nord but the Seanad is long overdue for reform.


Who suggested establishing a Cork Lega Nord?

1. We are in the south

2. We have already agreed that our sole purpose is for more local autonomy

3. We are not interested in right wing or left wing ideologies


Therefore we have nothing in common with the Northern League in Italy, so to classify us as such is disingenuous.

By the way, pudgee, and red core hardkore, and percysleftbollock, the discussion about class and marxism is one of the reasons I like visiting this forum.

It's very interesting.

[RizzlaRebel]

Fair play lads if ye set this up and have a few candidates in the local elections. Ye would get my vote anyway and to be honest I have never voted in the local elections and there are probably a lot more out there like me!

[Rebelred]

I'd be on for it alright before the local elections next year, but I think we'd need somebody who knows all about wards, and elections and transfers and stuff as well, maybe jd26, he seems to know a lot about that stuff. Then we could figure out who to run, and where, and what the policy would be.

We would have to think of a catchy name as well. I was thinking of The Cork Party, but that sounds like TCP which is a mouthwash or something like listerine.

I think we could harness a lot of support, but we would have to start with a blank canvas: all men and women are equal, we aren't socialist or capitalist, or republican or liberal, we are just interested in what's best for Cork. We could get three or four seats on the corporation, on the basis that we were not using it as a stepping stone to the dáil, but rather to break the stranglehold of dublin based parties.

having read alot of your theories and proposals, I'd vote for ya!

[the puerto rican feen]

Who suggested establishing a Cork Lega Nord?

1. We are in the south

2. We have already agreed that our sole purpose is for more local autonomy

3. We are not interested in right wing or left wing ideologies


Therefore we have nothing in common with the Northern League in Italy, so to classify us as such is disingenuous.

By the way, pudgee, and red core hardkore, and percysleftbollock, the discussion about class and marxism is one of the reasons I like visiting this forum.

It's very interesting.

I would vote for you too, but you will have to sell the "jeep", let me know how much you want for it.

[trasnanadtonnta]

I would consider voting for a Cork party. I would be hesitant to vote for ATS because, nice guy and all, but he is too right wing and he thinks that if you keep saying something, it becomes true. This is an attitude for which I have less than no respect -- kinda like garbled right-Helgelianism.

[Corcaigh32]

In essence lads, while I like the idea, the reality of it in political terms would be a disaster. Incidentally, why not just call it Daon-Phoblacht Chorcaí (now where did I get that idea.

As to why it would be a disaster, say you run a candidate in each ward, they would have about 6 months to create a profile. You would need all candidates to have clear policies and all of them would have to be the same, now in all fairness, try and find say 3 people with exactly the same view on anything on here. But, hypothetically, let's say you could....then what would those policies be, pro Cork policies??? every other party running in the locals (cos thats what locals are) would also be saying they are pro Cork...but even leaving that aside what would those policies actually be? The Corporation can't clear the Airport debt for example.....so careful thought would have to be put into a selection of position papers which were so much more pro Cork than any other candidate running in the locals (and that would be some feat) that it would make voting for them the obvious choice.

But lastly and by no means leastly, let's say you get 10 people elected to the Corporation....how do they get their policies implemented? Let's say the DPC candidates don't like the budget and can't agree the book of estimates???? That would mean the government would come down and run the Corporation which is exactly what a DPC candidate would be trying to avoid.

In my opinion, the country needs a new political party, but in the absence of the country getting one, a Cork based party stands the best chance if it could win maybe 6-8 seats across all the Cork constituencies in a GE and hold the balance of power (kingmakers if you will) after the next election. That is the only way the people of Cork can ever hope to influence Dublin decision making short of a Corkman becoming Taoiseach (and I don't see that happening any time soon).

[Riordan]

Althougt it is a wast of money etc, I do like the Irish Seanad. or at least the idea of it, so i'd keep the talking shop, i'd like it filled with some better charactors tho, David Noris is good, so is Ross, it would have been great if Joe ex SP TD, (cant think of his second name - ive been drinking) had got a seat in the seanad. People like Eamon Dumphy, Geldof, Michael D, just to have a rake of bright, biased, brill minds having a chat for the good of the Nation, its a wonderful thing, it doesn't need to make sense, my God we'd have got nowhere as a race by listening to Accountants n co.

To save costs on it tho they should run all their debats online, - PROC style, or just in a Pub FFS, they could have meetups in the Oyster Bar or the Hi B and slog out the topics of the day.

Oh 'twould be grand indeed.

[Riordan]

On the Cork Party thing, isnt Gormless bringing about changes to the local councils, more power, directly elected Mayor etc?

[jd26]

I have thought about the whole Cork Party idea, but I do have certain concerns.

One slight issue was what happened in The Netherlands with the whole Leefbar party system. Basically, there were parties that set up there (Leefbar Rotterdam, Leefbar Utrecht, Leefbar Hilversum etc.) with the intention of improving the lot for their municipalities. And eventually, there was a sort of alliance formed (Leefbar Nederland) that promoted their ideas on a national stage. But at the same time this happened, the populist nature of the parties meant they got infiltrated by people who used them as a vehicle to promote anti-immigrant views (even though this had nothing to do with their original purpose). Without a strong national leadership nothing could be done to suppress this. A lot of the original voters abandoned the parties and finally they effectively collapsed. Their only legacy was to have given a platform to people to continue stoking racial tensions (Pim Fortuyn, Geert Wilders, Rita Verdonk). So while acceptintg there is a good case for the party, a hard pragmatism is needed.

So, the other points I would make about such a party

It would have to be based around a principle of regional balance and self-determination rather than just an agenda of promoting Cork. Believe it or not, people in Galway, Limerick and Waterford also have problems with their relationship with Dublin. In many ways, the regional cities are the most shafted places in Ireland. Using this point could make the party seem reasonable, just following a Cork-first agenda would just make it a figure of ridicule.
The party would need to present a vision for Cork. To me this is completely lacking. All the major parties are asking us to vote for them on national issues. I mean can anyone tell me what difference it would make to Cork if I voted for a FF, FG, Labour or Sinn Fein candidate in the next locals. If it can present an agenda of this is what we will do for the city it's immediately a head-start. In fairness to the Greens, they do have a bit more vision, but they will always be hamstrung by the fact that they rely on Dublin for their powerbase.
The party would need to prove itself locally before it could consider running in a general election. It would need to show it could eliminate the culture of low standards that permeates Cork City Council (if anyone doesn't believe me, they could perhaps tell me how it is possible to cycle down the 'bike lane' on the Skehard Road or tell me why so many street lights are out in the city centre). It's fine to complain about levels of national funding, but it's also necessary to show that we could spend funding better locally.


Then I suppose there's the issue of whether the party could be held together. As pointed out by trasna, she can agree with ATS about his local agenda, but has serious issues with some of his other ideas. And there's a lot of truth in that. While we're all probably much in agreement about what needs to be done for Cork, what if the party did have to take a stance on more controversial national topics - The North, abortion, Lisbon? When people who found they agreed on so much find they disagree on these topics, what happens?

[Actin The Sham]

While we're all probably much in agreement about what needs to be done for Cork, what if the party did have to take a stance on more controversial national topics - The North, abortion, Lisbon? When people who found they agreed on so much find they disagree on these topics, what happens?

Write a constitution for the party with clearly defined areas of concern, and other equally clearly defined "no go" areas. I see this initially as a municipal party, with no agenda other than getting control of the City and County Councils, and then building from there.

National Topics of the type you mention would be out of bounds.

Otherwise you would get sucked into a debate that you would lose. Keep it simple, local, and clearly defined. Everyone can have a different opinion on the matter of "National" or "ethical" issues but these could be kept separate, in the same way that the North has never been used as an election issue between the parties in the Dublin parliament. OK, achievements have been celebrated, but for the most part, FF, FG, Labour and the others have normally agreed not to use "The North" in their election campaigns. Sinn Fein/IRA have obviously differed on this policy.

[Red Star Hardkore]

I think all would agree that the party should be left-right neutral and abstain from voting on policies that would cause conflict between supporters. There are those of us who would never dream of supporting a right wing party as I'm sure there are people who would never support a left wing party.

The fact that this party would work soley for the people of this county and city who's homeland is is treated as second class compared to the Pale should be enough to unite all no matter what your political beliefs.

[Actin The Sham]

I think all would agree that the party should be left-right neutral and abstain from voting on policies that would cause conflict between supporters. There are those of us who would never dream of supporting a right wing party as I'm sure there are people who would never support a left wing party.

The fact that this party would work soley for the people of this county and city who's homeland is is treated as second class compared to the Pale should be enough to unite all no matter what your political beliefs.


Exactly. Even the notion of this organisation being a "party" in the traditional sense of the word could cause confusion. As you say, this organisation would exist solely to put pressure on the Dublin parties to ensure that Cork gets its fair share, or to put it bluntly, more then its fair share if possible.

[jd26]

Incidentally, there's a problem with Irish law as regards trying to organise a regional party. I can't remember the exact details, but Sean 'Dublin Bay' Loftus fell foul of it. You have to at least pretend to be a national party. It would probably be enough to put candidates on the ballot elsewhere, although that may be trickier than it sounds.

[Actin The Sham]

Dublin City Council has confirmed it is to build a new €15 million bridge over the River Liffey, just downstream of O'Connell Bridge.

The council said the bridge, funded by the Government's Transport 21plan, will carry buses and Luas trams across the Liffey.

"It will have cycleways and generous footpaths that will open Marlborough Street and Hawkins Street to greater footfall, prospective development and create a new north-south link from Abbey Street to Pearse Street," the council said in a statement.

It promised an "elegant, contemporary" design.

"It will be a slender, single span, smooth concrete structure, with the underside of the bridge being designed to be as high above the water as possible so that river traffic is not impeded."

Construction is due to start late next year.


****

Meanwhile the bridge requested by Cork City Council to link the Marina with the lower glanmire road to enable the Atlantic Quarter to be built in the docklands has been put on the long finger by central government due to lack of funds.

[juan pablo]

ATS i believe you are wrong in fingering Dublin as the culprit for Corks woes. Its clearly the West and Regional Interests that are stifling Corks development not Dublin.

You cant begrudge a City of nearly a million people a new bridge, Dublin has a had a long standing infrastructure deficit. Instead its the wasteful spending to every region that means Cork loses out.

M9, WRC, M17, regional airport subsidies are all just examples of huge money spent on infrastructure that is little needed.

Proposing a regional party just makes us seem even more parochial then the West, instead what is needed is a Government willing to take decisions in the national interest, that means concentrating spending in 2/3 areas and willing to stand up to vested interests like the Shannon lobby, The West, Martin Cullen etc.

[Actin The Sham]

ATS i believe you are wrong in fingering Dublin as the culprit for Corks woes. Its clearly the West and Regional Interests that are stifling Corks development not Dublin.

You cant begrudge a City of nearly a million people a new bridge, Dublin has a had a long standing infrastructure deficit. Instead its the wasteful spending to every region that means Cork loses out.

M9, WRC, M17, regional airport subsidies are all just examples of huge money spent on infrastructure that is little needed.

Proposing a regional party just makes us seem even more parochial then the West, instead what is needed is a Government willing to take decisions in the national interest, that means concentrating spending in 2/3 areas and willing to stand up to vested interests like the Shannon lobby, The West, Martin Cullen etc.


I respect your opinion, and as I said early every opinion is welcome. One question though: In whose eyes will we "seem even more parochial than the West?"

[juan pablo]

I respect your opinion, and as I said early every opinion is welcome. One question though: In whose eyes will we "seem even more parochial than the West?"

I'm not exactly sure tbh, i guess i mean in my eyes. I suppose what i mean by it is that whilst other regions use their 'influence' in the main national parties here i get the vibe that because we have not benefited in the way the West or the SE has out of public spending, ie our useless pols have not fought Corks corner so to speak, then you're taking the extreme option of setting up a Party.

I believe that what can bring about positive change for Cork is having a decent Government, some solid plans and some tough decisions taken.

[Actin The Sham]

I'm not exactly sure tbh, i guess i mean in my eyes. I suppose what i mean by it is that whilst other regions use their 'influence' in the main national parties here i get the vibe that because we have not benefited in the way the West or the SE has out of public spending, ie our useless pols have not fought Corks corner so to speak, then you're taking the extreme option of setting up a Party.

I believe that what can bring about positive change for Cork is having a decent Government, some solid plans and some tough decisions taken.



I believe that we need good representatives locally. Representatives who will put the interests of their electorate first.

[juan pablo]

I believe that we need good representatives locally. Representatives who will put the interests of their electorate first.

So do i, are you going to be that representative?

[Actin The Sham]

So do i, are you going to be that representative?

Read all of the related threads, and pm wumble. I really can't be arsed getting into a long winded argument, along the lines you've had on boards.ie or on here with dishwap.

This is too important.

Fin.

[juan pablo]

Read all of the related threads, and pm wumble. I really can't be arsed getting into a long winded argument, along the lines you've had on boards.ie or on here with dishwap.

This is too important.

Fin.

I have read those threads, thats why i ask, are you going to run? i've read your suggestions, particularly the transport proposals, i'm in agreement with them.

[Langer Dan]

Oh dear.
Leaving aside the completely skewed class analysis here, what you are actively willing is for the situation of the proletariat to worsen. Meanwhile, as this happens, your proposed lack of left activism means the proletariat has no actual awareness of socialism. So how does this revolution happen again?

Is there anything sadder than the self-loathing lefty?:mrgreen:

[pudgee]

Is there anything sadder than the self-loathing lefty?:mrgreen:

Not sure, but posting on the INTERNET in the middle of the night is right up there
:mrgreen:

[Langer Dan]

Not sure, but posting on the INTERNET in the middle of the night is right up there
:mrgreen:

touche!:)

The INTERNET thrives on late night students/insomniacs/alcoholics.

[pudgee]

touche!:)

The INTERNET thrives on late night students/insomniacs/alcoholics.

And shirkers. Don't forget the shirkers.

[ho chi feen]

So is this party thing really going to happen?

Not sure how I could help, but you've got my vote if and when.

[Tube a Pringles]

So is this party thing really going to happen?

Not sure how I could help, but you've got my vote if and when.


You can write ya gombeen......press officer.

[ho chi feen]

You can write ya gombeen......press officer.

Not sure what I do and what's needed would be one and the same. Wouldn't you need a bit of a legal/PR mind for that kind of thing?

That aside, I'd more than happy to.