The State Of Hurling...

[theporge]

I think its fair to say that the qualifiers in the hurling championship this year have proved without a doubt that hurling is in dire straits at the moment and needs a huge makeover.
The 'back-door' system just isn't working. The GAA line on the back-door during its inception was that the extra games would bring on the weaker counties. (We all know that the back-door was really introduced to make sure that the dubs got to Croker more than once a year, but that's for another debate). Let's face it I dont see how successive hammerings at the hands of Galway and Waterford is going to do anything for hurling up north. A cakewalk Leinster hurling final proves that no team has progressed to the level needed to challenge the cats. In fact, the only entity within the GAA to thrive as a result of the back-door system has been Munster hurling. We are now at a situation where anyone of 5 teams can win it. The same cant be said for its footballing equivolent though.
A solution:
Here's my attempt at rescuing hurling...
We need to create an elite league for the top teams. Make it 2 groups of 4 teams. Everyone plays each other once so you're guaranteed 3 matches a year. The top 2 teams from each group go to the All-Ireland Semi-Finals and are seeded according to where they finished in their respective groups. The bottom team from each group, play one match and the losers drop-out of the elite league and for all intents and purpose are relegated to the 'Championship' league.
A similar league could be set up for the lesser counties with the reward at the end of the year a place amongst the Elite 8 replacing the relegated team.
So right now my Elite 8 for hurling would be : Cork, Tipperary, Waterford, Limerick, Clare, Kilkenny, Galway & Wexford. Split these into 2 groups of 4 and off you go.
At least every game SHOULD be competitive. Even in the lower league, at least teams will be playing against teams of the same skill level and so there should also be plenty of competitive hurling for all counties throughout the summer.
What this format does to the Provincial set-up I'm not quite sure..
So what do people think.. too radical???

[percysleftballock]

So what do people think.. too radical???

Not radical enough. The sham of inter-county hurling should be ended. Who could delude themselves that the Kilkenny A vs Kilkenny B match before the Wexford game was less competitive than the Leinster final? KK, Cork, Tipp and Galway could put out two or three teams each of a high standard. Why continue with the self-deception? Inter-county hurling is a dead rubber.

Professionalize the game -- the country could support 16 top-class teams. Hurling should leave the GAA and set up its own organization. It was professional in the 18th century -- the cult of amateurism is a legacy of colonialism anyway. The alternative is to watch the game wither, with outstanding hurlers warming benches in KK, Cork, Tipp, Galway, while the ladies of Wexford get to pretend they can hurl. Enough is enough.

[Rebelred]

provincial system has served us well in the past but right now I feel it is stunting the development of the game as a whole.

[Eoin]

provincial system has served us well in the past but right now I feel it is stunting the development of the game as a whole.

Yeah, its time to abandon it and completely overhaul the championship.

A champions league style format, witha group stage progressing to a knock-out is the best option I think.

16 teams in groups of 4, with the top 2 in each progressing to the quarter finals. That means 6 games to win an all-ireland and a guarantee of 3 games every year for each county involved.

[saintPaddy17th]

look basically we all knew that the real stuff only begins come august..I reckon from the QF onwards will be fantastic stuff altogether. I mean Clare are back as a force, Limerick have to prove that last year was no fluke, The Waterford situation is fascinating (It will take some team to beat them..) Tipp look assured in all aspects of the field (calmness reminds me of O'Gradys cork) Killkenny the team to beat as always, Galway have a cracking side and with the big question being asked of our own heart for battle. One hell of challenge left in this team no question. All the rubbish so far will be well and truly forgotten come September. On another note the prices being charged so far to games is crazy. E35 Leinster hurling final in all fairness???

[Glenagow]

The system is a joke as it stands. Kilkenny beat the shit out of wexford and Offaly and they're in an all ireland semi final. Clare beat Waterford and Limerick and they're only in the Munster final. All wrong.

The least that should be done is turfing Galway into Leinster. And thats only the least.

[Eoin]

The system is a joke as it stands. Kilkenny beat the shit out of wexford and Offaly and they're in an all ireland semi final. Clare beat Waterford and Limerick and they're only in the Munster final. All wrong.

The least that should be done is turfing Galway into Leinster. And thats only the least.

Yep the bare minimum, I don't see why it hasn't been done already, surely it'd be beneficial to Galway as well?

[Rebelred]

look basically we all knew that the real stuff only begins come august..I reckon from the QF onwards will be fantastic stuff altogether. I mean Clare are back as a force, Limerick have to prove that last year was no fluke, The Waterford situation is fascinating (It will take some team to beat them..) Tipp look assured in all aspects of the field (calmness reminds me of O'Gradys cork) Killkenny the team to beat as always, Galway have a cracking side and with the big question being asked of our own heart for battle. One hell of challenge left in this team no question. All the rubbish so far will be well and truly forgotten come September. On another note the prices being charged so far to games is crazy. E35 Leinster hurling final in all fairness???
well it's all knockout from here, so presuming Cork and Limerick come through this weekend then then real action kicks off on the 19th, so you'll have two big guns gone before the quarters

[delzer]

Yep the bare minimum, I don't see why it hasn't been done already, surely it'd be beneficial to Galway as well?

galway were invited by the leinster council to join the leinster championship but refused the invite a few years ago.

dont know why.

[Langer Dan]

provincial system has served us well in the past but right now I feel it is stunting the development of the game as a whole.

I would scrap the backdoor altogether, it only serves to benefit the stronger teams.( that said itl never be scrapped as its such a moneyspinner).

Leinster is a joke, the fact that the winners of Leinster get a bye into the semi's is an insult to Munster hurling, at the very most they should get a place in the quarters' Its effectively giving Kilkenny one day out for a place in the final.

Would you propose an open draw and retain the backdoor?

[Eoin]

Would you propose an open draw and retain the backdoor?

Open draw with group stages progressing to knockout, then at least everyone would be guaranteed a few days out every summer, which is essentially waht the back door was introduced for.

[Liathroidi Mor]

I think its fair to say that the qualifiers in the hurling championship this year have proved without a doubt that hurling is in dire straits at the moment and needs a huge makeover.
The 'back-door' system just isn't working. The GAA line on the back-door during its inception was that the extra games would bring on the weaker counties. (We all know that the back-door was really introduced to make sure that the dubs got to Croker more than once a year, but that's for another debate). Let's face it I dont see how successive hammerings at the hands of Galway and Waterford is going to do anything for hurling up north. A cakewalk Leinster hurling final proves that no team has progressed to the level needed to challenge the cats. In fact, the only entity within the GAA to thrive as a result of the back-door system has been Munster hurling. We are now at a situation where anyone of 5 teams can win it. The same cant be said for its footballing equivolent though.
A solution:
Here's my attempt at rescuing hurling...
We need to create an elite league for the top teams. Make it 2 groups of 4 teams. Everyone plays each other once so you're guaranteed 3 matches a year. The top 2 teams from each group go to the All-Ireland Semi-Finals and are seeded according to where they finished in their respective groups. The bottom team from each group, play one match and the losers drop-out of the elite league and for all intents and purpose are relegated to the 'Championship' league.
A similar league could be set up for the lesser counties with the reward at the end of the year a place amongst the Elite 8 replacing the relegated team.
So right now my Elite 8 for hurling would be : Cork, Tipperary, Waterford, Limerick, Clare, Kilkenny, Galway & Wexford. Split these into 2 groups of 4 and off you go.
At least every game SHOULD be competitive. Even in the lower league, at least teams will be playing against teams of the same skill level and so there should also be plenty of competitive hurling for all counties throughout the summer.
What this format does to the Provincial set-up I'm not quite sure..
So what do people think.. too radical???


I had this discussion with one of the lads last night in the pub and would do the exact same thing with the league format!!! It's very practical and simple!!! However i would keep the Munster championship. This would be a seperate competition and knockout, This could be played over 2 or 3 weeks in April/May and used as a warm up for the All Ireland league format which would start in June!!

[delzer]

I had this discussion with one of the lads last night in the pub and would do the exact same thing with the league format!!! It's very practical and simple!!! However i would keep the Munster championship. This would be a seperate competition and knockout, This could be played over 2 or 3 weeks in April/May and used as a warm up for the All Ireland league format which would start in June!!

thats not a bad idea but couldnt see the gaa going for that

[Rebelred]

I would scrap the backdoor altogether, it only serves to benefit the stronger teams.( that said itl never be scrapped as its such a moneyspinner).

Leinster is a joke, the fact that the winners of Leinster get a bye into the semi's is an insult to Munster hurling, at the very most they should get a place in the quarters' Its effectively giving Kilkenny one day out for a place in the final.

Would you propose an open draw and retain the backdoor?

open draw. short league system. No backdoor. The porge's suggestion is pretty solid but getting 16 teams will be a struggle when we have only 10 teams of the current 12 up to it, no disrespect to Laois or Antrim, the GAA has let them down badly. After that, you're looking to the likes of Westmeath, Down and Carlow for a breakthrough, still not at 16.

[Eoin]

open draw. short league system. No backdoor. The porge's suggestion is pretty solid but getting 16 teams will be a struggle when we have only 10 teams of the current 12 up to it, no disrespect to Laois or Antrim, the GAA has let them down badly. After that, you're looking to the likes of Westmeath, Down and Carlow for a breakthrough, still not at 16.

I dunno, maybe if the smaller counties such as down, carlow, westmeath etc were guaranteed 3 games a season in a group stage, they'd improve over time. Its certainly a better option than the current system IMO.

[northmallexile]

Latest official musings on this:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2008/0708/1215380380598.html

[Rebelred]

I dunno, maybe if the smaller counties such as down, carlow, westmeath etc were guaranteed 3 games a season in a group stage, they'd improve over time. Its certainly a better option than the current system IMO.

possibly, whatever system is brought in, needs to be given a sustained period of time to allow the weaker counties come on. setting it for a period fo two years is useless. If Dublin were getting 4 games a year against the likes of Cork, KK, Galway etc, then they'd be challenging within the next 3 to 4 years.
One fear I'd have, is that with a league style format, the competitive edge of pure knockout is lost

[Eoin]

possibly, whatever system is brought in, needs to be given a sustained period of time to allow the weaker counties come on. setting it for a period fo two years is useless. If Dublin were getting 4 games a year against the likes of Cork, KK, Galway etc, then they'd be challenging within the next 3 to 4 years.
One fear I'd have, is that with a league style format, the competitive edge of pure knockout is lost

Not necessarily, how many games at the group stage of the euro tournament last month lacked competitive edge??

When teams are only playing each other once, you have 3 games to progress, I think it would add a bit more competitiveness to the games in June.

[Rebelred]

Not necessarily, how many games at the group stage of the euro tournament last month lacked competitive edge??

When teams are only playing each other once, you have 3 games to progress, I think it would add a bit more competitiveness to the games in June.

true, with groups of 4, you can only afford the one loss.

I think a big problem with the structure of hurling overall, is that people are trying to fix it from the top (intercounty) level down, and not from the bottom (juvenille club level) up.

[Eoin]

true, with groups of 4, you can only afford the one loss.

I think a big problem with the structure of hurling overall, is that people are trying to fix it from the top (intercounty) level down, and not from the bottom (juvenille club level) up.

Yes, but I still think that the all-ireland needs to be overhauled before any of the lower level plans will work effectively.

At the moment I think in a lot of smaller counties there's probably a 'ah sure we'll never compete with the big boys' attitude. If they knew that tehy could be playing against the likes of Cork/Kilkenny ever year, then I think the incentive to work at pushing young players would be a lot higher.

[Coin]

Yes, but I still think that the all-ireland needs to be overhauled before any of the lower level plans will work effectively.

At the moment I think in a lot of smaller counties there's probably a 'ah sure we'll never compete with the big boys' attitude. If they knew that tehy could be playing against the likes of Cork/Kilkenny ever year, then I think the incentive to work at pushing young players would be a lot higher.
Not too sure about that logic. Kids tend to only care about playing whoever is in front of them. If the lads in the next town keep beating them, that's where incentive to improve comes from. They don't have the big picture view of things to even worry about Cork or Kilkenny, and until they're at least 16 or 17, you're wasting your time trying (believe me, I know).


Rebelred's right as well about trying to fix it from the top down. Even if you create a system where about 20 Dubliners get enough experience from playing 3 good games per year to start to close the gap, this will do very little for hurling in general. Look at Wexford. I heard Martin Storey say last week that one of the things that helped them win their All Ireland was how together that group of player were after taking so many beatings from Kilkenny, and how it drove them to improve. And improve they did, but as soon as that group got too old, Wexford were back to square one. It did nothing in the long run, and apart from the single blip a few years ago it's been back to the beatings.

[Eoin]

Not too sure about that logic. Kids tend to only care about playing whoever is in front of them. If the lads in the next town keep beating them, that's where incentive to improve comes from. They don't have the big picture view of things to even worry about Cork or Kilkenny, and until they're at least 16 or 17, you're wasting your time trying (believe me, I know).


Rebelred's right as well about trying to fix it from the top down. Even if you create a system where about 20 Dubliners get enough experience from playing 3 good games per year to start to close the gap, this will do very little for hurling in general. Look at Wexford. I heard Martin Storey say last week that one of the things that helped them win their All Ireland was how together that group of player were after taking so many beatings from Kilkenny, and how it drove them to improve. And improve they did, but as soon as that group got too old, Wexford were back to square one. It did nothing in the long run, and apart from the single blip a few years ago it's been back to the beatings.

I'm not talking about motivating the kids playing it, I'm talking about motivating the people involved in promoting the game within county boards.

[Rebelred]

I'm not talking about motivating the kids playing it, I'm talking about motivating the people involved in promoting the game within county boards.

6 of one, half dozen of the other.
I'd love a job as a hurling administrator in one of the weaker counties to be honest, it would be a great challenge

[3pointplay]

I think its fair to say that the qualifiers in the hurling championship this year have proved without a doubt that hurling is in dire straits at the moment and needs a huge makeover.
The 'back-door' system just isn't working. The GAA line on the back-door during its inception was that the extra games would bring on the weaker counties. (We all know that the back-door was really introduced to make sure that the dubs got to Croker more than once a year, but that's for another debate). Let's face it I dont see how successive hammerings at the hands of Galway and Waterford is going to do anything for hurling up north. A cakewalk Leinster hurling final proves that no team has progressed to the level needed to challenge the cats. In fact, the only entity within the GAA to thrive as a result of the back-door system has been Munster hurling. We are now at a situation where anyone of 5 teams can win it. The same cant be said for its footballing equivolent though.
A solution:
Here's my attempt at rescuing hurling...
We need to create an elite league for the top teams. Make it 2 groups of 4 teams. Everyone plays each other once so you're guaranteed 3 matches a year. The top 2 teams from each group go to the All-Ireland Semi-Finals and are seeded according to where they finished in their respective groups. The bottom team from each group, play one match and the losers drop-out of the elite league and for all intents and purpose are relegated to the 'Championship' league.
A similar league could be set up for the lesser counties with the reward at the end of the year a place amongst the Elite 8 replacing the relegated team.
So right now my Elite 8 for hurling would be : Cork, Tipperary, Waterford, Limerick, Clare, Kilkenny, Galway & Wexford. Split these into 2 groups of 4 and off you go.
At least every game SHOULD be competitive. Even in the lower league, at least teams will be playing against teams of the same skill level and so there should also be plenty of competitive hurling for all counties throughout the summer.
What this format does to the Provincial set-up I'm not quite sure..
So what do people think.. too radical???
I will be the first to admit i know next to nothing about hurling but that sounds like a super league you are on about.

[Eoin]

6 of one, half dozen of the other.
I'd love a job as a hurling administrator in one of the weaker counties to be honest, it would be a great challenge

Definitely. A huge challenge.

One great idea that was implemented in Dublin was that any underage players joining a club played both codes alternating each week. so one week was hurling one week football.

However, you have to be careful as my girlfriends little brother joined his local club and they didn't bother with the football so he lost interest. The right balance obviously needs to be found.

[Coin]

I'm not talking about motivating the kids playing it, I'm talking about motivating the people involved in promoting the game within county boards.
The end result is too distant for those people as well. If you want those people motivated, you need programs that will give them results in less than 10 years, which is the minimum it takes for a juvenile program to have effect at senior level. Programs that raise the quality of the play in youth games are more important because it is a visible result that can come about within 2 to 3 years at the youngest age groups. Seeing the results motivates people to carry on.

[Eoin]

The end result is too distant for those people as well. If you want those people motivated, you need programs that will give them results in less than 10 years, which is the minimum it takes for a juvenile program to have effect at senior level. Programs that raise the quality of the play in youth games are more important because it is a visible result that can come about within 2 to 3 years at the youngest age groups. Seeing the results motivates people to carry on.

I suppose. I still think a re-org of the championship would be good for hurling though.

[duffer31]

its the gulf in class between strong and weak counties that is the problema nd not the format. i think the gaa could have any structure they wanted and it will not and simply cannot bring on the weaker counties. its up to the counties themselves to go back to the drawing board with proper structures and coaching/player development. if ya cant hurl then you have got to learn and no structure will change that. it cant hurt but certainly cant close the gap in class which is immense.

[Coin]

I suppose. I still think a re-org of the championship would be good for hurling though.
Well, I'm not from a GAA background, so the whole concept of a (pseudo) knock out championship being the primary competition seems stupid to me anyway. A league is the way to identify the best team in any given year. However, since that would require the best players to be gone from their clubs for such a long time, it's probably not the best for the GAA.

[Eoin]

Some interesting proposals here:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/the-proposals-explained-1429325.html

[Unknown Legend]

I would scrap the backdoor altogether, it only serves to benefit the stronger teams.( that said itl never be scrapped as its such a moneyspinner).

Leinster is a joke, the fact that the winners of Leinster get a bye into the semi's is an insult to Munster hurling, at the very most they should get a place in the quarters' Its effectively giving Kilkenny one day out for a place in the final.

Would you propose an open draw and retain the backdoor?

Have to agree there.
Gaa keep talking about promoting the sport but it seems to be only the
munster teams doing this.
Kilkenny don't even travel very much.
We (Cork) travel everywhere every Year to support and promote Hurling AND Football.
Where are the Kilkenny Fans all season and for that matter the Kerry Fans.
But staying with the hurling issue. No more byes to the semis and putting
Galway into Leinster may stir Wexford and Offaly into action as well as
Kilkenny.

[Rebelred]

Some interesting proposals here:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/the-proposals-explained-1429325.html

interesting alright. all have their own merits but I keep coming back to my point about developing from the bottom up instead of from the top down.