The screwing of Cork

[bosco]

This has been done before but perhaps it's time to draft a new list of ways in which the various limbs of our local and national governments, and opposition representatives, have screwed us in recent times?

Please add where appropriate.

For a start:

Major transport infrastructure
-- Port of Cork relocation refusal on dubious grounds (while plans for relocation of Dublin port forge ahead)
-- Cork Airport development completed at reduced specs, laden with debt, still no autonomy (while Shannon gets handouts for marketing and tourism at the expense of the southern region)
-- Middleton rail line years behind schedule, no sign of works on Blarney/Kilbarry sites (while Luas, Dart upgrades, Metro works continue apace in Dublin)
-- Kent station, the first impression of the city for many, gets a lick of paint instead of a major upgrade and reorientation to face the quays as promised years ago.
-- Public transport. Ha ha. In Cork? Bus routes totally inadequate and outdated, not enough busses, not enough frequency, no night-link service, no Cork transport authority.

Roads
Most of these roads projects have been put on the long finger indefinitely because they don't fall under the category of "major inter-urban routes" (read: roads to Dublin).
-- N20 Cork to Limerick (Blarney to Mallow) -- dangerous, busy road, linking the two biggest urban centres in the country after Dublin. Not considered a "major inter-urban route" so can wait. And wait. And wait.
-- N22 Cork Northern Ring road
-- N22 Ballincollig - Ballyvourney (including Macroom bypass) -- carries thousands of tourists every day and clogs up Macroom. Dangerous disgrace of a road.
-- N25 Cork SRR Interchanges at Bishopstown and Sarsfields road roundabouts. Major traffic bottlnecks, promised to be fixed ages ago. On hold.
-- N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy - Won't build the road because there's no justification yet. Won't allow the port of Cork to expand at Ringaskiddy because the road isn't built.
-- Entire road from Cork to Bandon to Skibb and beyond -- not even on the agenda.

Jobs
-- Amgen announced with great fanfare by Micheál Martin, yet few have noticed that it's a dead duck now.
-- Hibernian bailing out
-- Pfizer bailing out in little island

Other
-- Haulbowline - toxic waste dump ready to seep into our harbour and lying metres from our naval base. Green party environment minister admits that if it's going to cost too much to clean it up properly they'll just leave it there and/or cover it up.
-- Spike island - could be a major heritage site, nothing forthcoming from government.
-- Docklands - government promised gateway funding from EU, tax breaks etc. Nothing happening. Dublin docklands has its own development authority, and is years ahead of Cork. Cork city council are just waiting for developers to take the initiative. Much of the south docks need specialised clean-up (Seveso sites) before development can proceed; this has been known for years but nothing has happened yet.


Right.

So you may not see or hear from your local TD until weeks before the next election, when he or she may turn up on your doorstep all smiles and handshakes, announcing that they're going to get that pothole filled in or get that streetlamp bulb replaced. Will you remember any of the above?

How about your local councillor who claims to be anti-urban-sprawl and anti-highrise at the same time? Will you challenge him/her to explain how we can avoid the unending spread of anonymous, unserviced housing estates on the edges of urban centres, when we still knock back any proposal for a building more than three storeys high in zones specifically identified by city development plans for high density transport corridoors?

Do any of these guys have more interest in the proper development of their city and county than getting their picture in the Echo?

[Chelsea Hotel #2]

Green party environment minister admits that if it's going to cost too much to clean it up properly they'll just leave it there and/or cover it up.


Sums it up really. You can be sure if the same problem was discovered in Ringsend that the response would be entirely different.

[magnum69]

Wow - great post, sums it all up really. Well done.

[Liathroidi Mor]

Ya can't really add to that . Fair play

[FrostyBrew]

RTE. Should be regionalized a la BBC, ITV etc.

[HappyMonday83]

This has been done before but perhaps it's time to draft a new list of ways in which the various limbs of our local and national governments, and opposition representatives, have screwed us in recent times?

Please add where appropriate.

For a start:

Major transport infrastructure
-- Port of Cork relocation refusal on dubious grounds (while plans for relocation of Dublin port forge ahead)
-- Cork Airport development completed at reduced specs, laden with debt, still no autonomy (while Shannon gets handouts for marketing and tourism at the expense of the southern region)
-- Middleton rail line years behind schedule, no sign of works on Blarney/Kilbarry sites (while Luas, Dart upgrades, Metro works continue apace in Dublin)
-- Kent station, the first impression of the city for many, gets a lick of paint instead of a major upgrade and reorientation to face the quays as promised years ago.
-- Public transport. Ha ha. In Cork? Bus routes totally inadequate and outdated, not enough busses, not enough frequency, no night-link service, no Cork transport authority.

Roads
Most of these roads projects have been put on the long finger indefinitely because they don't fall under the category of "major inter-urban routes" (read: roads to Dublin).
-- N20 Cork to Limerick (Blarney to Mallow) -- dangerous, busy road, linking the two biggest urban centres in the country after Dublin. Not considered a "major inter-urban route" so can wait. And wait. And wait.
-- N22 Cork Northern Ring road
-- N22 Ballincollig - Ballyvourney (including Macroom bypass) -- carries thousands of tourists every day and clogs up Macroom. Dangerous disgrace of a road.
-- N25 Cork SRR Interchanges at Bishopstown and Sarsfields road roundabouts. Major traffic bottlnecks, promised to be fixed ages ago. On hold.
-- N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy - Won't build the road because there's no justification yet. Won't allow the port of Cork to expand at Ringaskiddy because the road isn't built.
-- Entire road from Cork to Bandon to Skibb and beyond -- not even on the agenda.

Jobs
-- Amgen announced with great fanfare by Micheál Martin, yet few have noticed that it's a dead duck now.
-- Hibernian bailing out
-- Pfizer bailing out in little island

Other
-- Haulbowline - toxic waste dump ready to seep into our harbour and lying metres from our naval base. Green party environment minister admits that if it's going to cost too much to clean it up properly they'll just leave it there and/or cover it up.
-- Spike island - could be a major heritage site, nothing forthcoming from government.
-- Docklands - government promised gateway funding from EU, tax breaks etc. Nothing happening. Dublin docklands has its own development authority, and is years ahead of Cork. Cork city council are just waiting for developers to take the initiative. Much of the south docks need specialised clean-up (Seveso sites) before development can proceed; this has been known for years but nothing has happened yet.


Right.

So you may not see or hear from your local TD until weeks before the next election, when he or she may turn up on your doorstep all smiles and handshakes, announcing that they're going to get that pothole filled in or get that streetlamp bulb replaced. Will you remember any of the above?

How about your local councillor who claims to be anti-urban-sprawl and anti-highrise at the same time? Will you challenge him/her to explain how we can avoid the unending spread of anonymous, unserviced housing estates on the edges of urban centres, when we still knock back any proposal for a building more than three storeys high in zones specifically identified by city development plans for high density transport corridoors?

Do any of these guys have more interest in the proper development of their city and county than getting their picture in the Echo?
In a lovely fairy princess world all this would would be perfect, but in the real world the case is that there is still a lot of work that needs doing in Dublin. With Dublin being the capitol and the core of the economy it takes precedence over what ever petty gripes cork may have.

[jd26]

The argument that Dublin needs XXXX because it is the core of the economy is largely self-sustaining. You build Dublin a metro and it encourages growth in Dublin, which means that Dublin needs another metro line.

The problem is that we have two approaches to planning. One is to concentrate everything in Dublin and the other is to try to give every small town around the country a bit to keep them happy. Of course, the worst affected are the regional cities, which should be the growth centres outside Dublin, but instead are condemned to not get the facilities they need to achieve that.

I'd caution against the idea that this is purely a Cork phenomenon. For example, as much as we complain about Shannon, someone in Limerick could say that Cork is getting a commuter rail line to Midleton, while they aren't getting anything like that. A look at any OS map will show that there is an extensive rail network still around Limerick; it would be easy to establish commuter rail there just by opening stations on existing lines. Instead, there is only really one commuter station in Castleconnell and that gets two services a day.

Fostering rivalry between Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford actually suits, because we should be working together.

[Rebelred]

Don't forget the North Ring Road... doesn't seem to be much of a move on it these days.

[Arcadia]

Quality post and do not forget decentralisation when Cork was ignored yet again.

Cork city,The Harbour including Cobh and its environs have amazing potential to offer citizens and visitors alike but our politicians,central government are always in the grip of Dublins prominence as a capital city which is also the case in other countries and we just have to get on with it.Private developers like Howard Holdings have the guts to proceed with vision in their City & Docklands developments and all the moaning achieves nothing until election promise time when the old chestnut "Luas for Cork" is front page Echo news.

It pains me to say it but Cork,Cobh fared better infrastructure and commercial wise under British rule with port infrastructure,great oublic buildings,roads rail & a working tram and light rail system for Cork City & County all to serve their empire of course.

Cork need to quit the poor me second city moan and just get on with it as a continental modern European City and show some confidence in its unrealised potential form Shandon,Docklands,Sp ike Island and its unique character.

Cork always traded and looked to mainland Europe historically as well as Britain while Dublin was the administrative capital of British rule.

[Unknown Legend]

Nice One Bosco!! Have to Agree with you.Right on the money.
Now................. ....
What Are We Going to do about it?





As for Dublin being the core of the economy. Recent poll cites Cork as most
profitable County per head of Population.i.e. Produce More per head.

[Jim Comic]

secession is our only hope!

if we then take possession of the gas fields, fishing rights, haulbowline, cork harbour, etc and all other natural resources in the cork area then we have some chance of success in the new era of Cork independence.

Secede!!!!!!!!

[Jim Comic]

As for Dublin being the core of the economy. Recent poll cites Cork as most
profitable County per head of Population.i.e. Produce More per head.

i've read this before somewhere too and, if true, is yet more proof that we put more into to the free state economy than we get out of it.

also, i'd LOVE to know what % of taxation the govt takes from cork and whether or not they put back in the same level of spend back into cork? i.e. if, say, 17% of taxation came from cork then, to my mind, 17% of govt spend should go back into cork, i don't see why we should subsidise loser counties like cavan, monaghan, etc :)


same with the lotto, whatever % of lotto income comes from cork should be matched by a similar % into cork sports and cultural groups (though personally i'd rather see it put into the health system and education)

[Jim Comic]

Private developers like Howard Holdings have the guts to proceed with vision in their City & Docklands developments and all the moaning achieves nothing until election promise time when the old chestnut "Luas for Cork" is front page Echo news.



so true

I'd love if the various developers etc were allowed to bring in world class architects to totally revamp cork, we only have one chance at getting the docklands and harbour area right so we should go all-out for a world class cityscape for the 21st century and beyond.

I think i saw in dublin that developers out in citywest helped to pay for the luas to continue out to them as they knew having it there would improve the attractiveness of the area and so too the value of their properties. Private developers are almost always faster than the public sector at getting things done and can do it cheaper too.

If the cork harbour board and the developers were to get together and cut out the self-serving FF govt to a greater extent then things would get done a lot faster. There's still a lot of potential in cork to make it cork's best city to live in IF they get it right but as i say there's only really one chance to do so.

[3pointplay]

Ffs sake 3pp thought there was a mass orgy on in the city.

[Unknown Legend]

Recent google search finds no reference to this anywhere. Source?

CSO figures from last census

[juan pablo]

This has been done before but perhaps it's time to draft a new list of ways in which the various limbs of our local and national governments, and opposition representatives, have screwed us in recent times?

Please add where appropriate.

For a start:

Major transport infrastructure
-- Port of Cork relocation refusal on dubious grounds (while plans for relocation of Dublin port forge ahead)
-- Cork Airport development completed at reduced specs, laden with debt, still no autonomy (while Shannon gets handouts for marketing and tourism at the expense of the southern region)
-- Middleton rail line years behind schedule, no sign of works on Blarney/Kilbarry sites (while Luas, Dart upgrades, Metro works continue apace in Dublin)
-- Kent station, the first impression of the city for many, gets a lick of paint instead of a major upgrade and reorientation to face the quays as promised years ago.
-- Public transport. Ha ha. In Cork? Bus routes totally inadequate and outdated, not enough busses, not enough frequency, no night-link service, no Cork transport authority.?

1. Permission not being granted to a new Cork Port at Ringaskiddy was correct, any major port needs good Road & Rail links, the current Port of Cork has better access to both(though not used in the case of rail). Dublin Port isnt moving anywhere, the idea to re locate to Bremore is just that an idea.

2.There is no point insinuating that Dublin Rail projects are powering ahead whilst Cork/Midleton is being left behind, The Original LUAS lines were due to be opened in the 1990s, The Airport Metro in this decade(not 2013+ which is the current estimate) & the Single most important Rail project in the country - The Interconnector - is still just plans on a drawing board. The Real culprit is the Western Rail Corridor, the costs per per passenger breakdown dwarf costs for Midleton, LUAS & Metro.

3. Kent is a joke, but it doesnt need an expensive upgrade until it has decent passenger numbers, compare Kent to Pearse/Connolly/Heuston and you'll understand what i mean, sure IE seem more intent on selling off the site rather then developing Rail services but their hands are tied.

4. Agreed public transport is a joke, but this country made the conscious decision in the mid/late 1990s to prioritise Road Development, all those shiny new Motorways & DCs were developed over expanding public transport options, we are a car addicted country, its only the past few years we've copped on that actually yes Trains & buses area good thing, too late for the Celtic Tiger unfortunately, expect T21 to be scaled back over the next year.

4(a). BE ran a limited Night Link service in Cork a while back but was discontinued, why? no one used it.

5. Cork Airport: since the Airport was built in its location its been a victim of terrible decison making.

Roads
Most of these roads projects have been put on the long finger indefinitely because they don't fall under the category of "major inter-urban routes" (read: roads to Dublin).
-- N20 Cork to Limerick (Blarney to Mallow) -- dangerous, busy road, linking the two biggest urban centres in the country after Dublin. Not considered a "major inter-urban route" so can wait. And wait. And wait.
-- N22 Cork Northern Ring road
-- N22 Ballincollig - Ballyvourney (including Macroom bypass) -- carries thousands of tourists every day and clogs up Macroom. Dangerous disgrace of a road.
-- N25 Cork SRR Interchanges at Bishopstown and Sarsfields road roundabouts. Major traffic bottlnecks, promised to be fixed ages ago. On hold.
-- N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy - Won't build the road because there's no justification yet. Won't allow the port of Cork to expand at Ringaskiddy because the road isn't built.
-- Entire road from Cork to Bandon to Skibb and beyond -- not even on the agenda.?

I agree that the delay in these road projects is annoying but its not only Cork which suffers from this (there are nearly 130 seperate road projects that the NRA are working on but have yet to reach the Tendering stage), there are dozens of road projects across the country which are in the same purgatory as the projects mentioned above, many of which will face the axe with impending budget cuts.

Jobs
-- Amgen announced with great fanfare by Micheál Martin, yet few have noticed that it's a dead duck now.
-- Hibernian bailing out
-- Pfizer bailing out in little island?

1.Amgen was dead in the water before the 2007 GE, however M. Martin made it an election promise that the project was still viable, it wasnt, people still voted for him, he'll still top the Poll in Cork S/C, whose fault is that?

2. Hibernian are still in Cork Airport no?

3. Pfizer are still in Little Island and with expansion at Eli Lilly in Kinsale the regions continued strength in Bio/Pharma will hopefully continue through potential troubled times. Hopefully.

Other
-- Haulbowline - toxic waste dump ready to seep into our harbour and lying metres from our naval base. Green party environment minister admits that if it's going to cost too much to clean it up properly they'll just leave it there and/or cover it up.
-- Spike island - could be a major heritage site, nothing forthcoming from government.
-- Docklands - government promised gateway funding from EU, tax breaks etc. Nothing happening. Dublin docklands has its own development authority, and is years ahead of Cork. Cork city council are just waiting for developers to take the initiative. Much of the south docks need specialised clean-up (Seveso sites) before development can proceed; this has been known for years but nothing has happened yet.?

Haulbowline - its just the current Governments bad luck that this issue has come to the fore now, there was heavy industry operating there for 60 years, for most of that time there was little or no Environmental regulation, It will get cleaned up and it will cost a fortune.

Docklands - Corks problem is that it decided to copy Dublins strategy, Waterford & Limerick are also pushing their docklands schemes with the same bells & whistles promised to it by their local Government TDs. What was a good idea in the late 80s/early 1990s - the IFSC - wont necessarily be a good idea in 2008. the docklands regeneration is proceeding slowly for a variety of reasons but the real question is are 20k people really going to live in the Docklands? is there really going to a huge demand for Office space in the Cork Region when/if all the shiny new 'skyscrapers' make it off the drawing board? in otherwords is there actually a need for the Docklands plan as is?


Right.

So you may not see or hear from your local TD until weeks before the next election, when he or she may turn up on your doorstep all smiles and handshakes, announcing that they're going to get that pothole filled in or get that streetlamp bulb replaced. Will you remember any of the above?

How about your local councillor who claims to be anti-urban-sprawl and anti-highrise at the same time? Will you challenge him/her to explain how we can avoid the unending spread of anonymous, unserviced housing estates on the edges of urban centres, when we still knock back any proposal for a building more than three storeys high in zones specifically identified by city development plans for high density transport corridoors?

Do any of these guys have more interest in the proper development of their city and county than getting their picture in the Echo?

This is the crux of the matter, Corks politicians be they the Martins/Clunes(barrys)/Coveneys/Lynchs etc are excellent politicians, they know how to get elected.

But are they along with the City & Council Pols any good at articulating a coherent vision/plan/future for Cork? no they are not.

That along with a highly centralised National Government & Weak local Government will mean that Cork in 2028 will be as much a backwater then as it is now.

[juan pablo]

It pains me to say it but Cork,Cobh fared better infrastructure and commercial wise under British rule with port infrastructure,great oublic buildings,roads rail & a working tram and light rail system for Cork City & County all to serve their empire of course.



These kind of sentiments are pointless when it comes to infrastructure questions. The British didnt build most of those things you mentioned Private citizens did. most of the dismantled Railway/Tram lines in Cork and Ireland bear no relation to their modern counterparts in terms of technology. Remember the British shut down huge swathes of their Railway & Tram lines throughout the 20th Century for the same economic reasons that an independent Irish Government did.

[p_murphy]

The 10 largest towns in Ireland not on the national route network


Cobh
Passage West
Buncrana
Duleek
Athenry
Kinsale
Bailieborough
Carndonagh
Kanturk
Crosshaven

Isn't it nice to see Cork so well represented on a list. For good measure the town in 11th place is Dunmanway. Cobh is double the size of the next nearest town off the network and roads are sent half way across the country to get to smaller towns.

Looking at the list, the inhabitants of Inishowen, which doesn't even have a national road through it also have cause to grumble.

[rebs23]

So it takes into account people who live outside of Dublin who work there?

Yes they do. The CSO combined the figures for Dublin and the Mid East in their recent publication "Regional Quality of life indicators" for the Gross Value Added by Region and Dublin and the Mid East has a score of 123.1 and the South West 118.5 (which includes Kerry).

Anyone even arguing against the fact that Cork is being screwed in favour of the Dublin - Belfast economic corridor is really living in fantasy land.
For a population of 1/2 million people, we are being "ridden rock solid".

Time for a new Regional Party to campaign for equal distribution of Government spending in this country and for Cork the N28 to Ringaskiddy, the Limerick - Cork Motorway, the Docklands tax incentives, a decentralised government department, CIE and Kent station, the Gateway fund for the Docklands bridge and a new City and Harbour Council which reflects the actual size of the City.

Excellent Post.

[Dwyer On Fire]

With the downturn there might be an opportunity for radical politics if Cowen starts making mistakes and jobless figures rise. Other than that you're wasting your time unless your serious about doing something about it. i.e. a new regional party.

Noel O'Flynn will be allowed his usual "anti-Fianna Fáil" stance a few weeks before the election. Cowen will come to Cork and throw his arms around him (I'd like to see that myself) and O'flynn will shade the fourth seat in North Central again. Clune will be replaced by Boyle in South Central if The Greens tactically pull out of government a few months before the general election. Thats about as radical as I'd say things will get. Nothing wrong with stability but being static is worrying.

In the local elections somebody from here using the PROC and a few other alternatives might be able to register some kind of protest if it was well coordinated and there were a few big PR stunts.

You only need about 2000 votes to get elected to City Council right?

[jd26]

Considerably less than that. In the last election, Tony Fitzgerald got elected with 474 first preferences and only 871 votes when all the transfers have been given out.

To be honest, the only way a regional party could work would be to get people onto the council first and get them working damn hard. Then they could run for the general election. Maybe a publicity stunt like a disagreement with the government over funding of public transport just before the election to increase support. A straight run at the generals would achieve nothing.

And then you'd be looking to take an opposition seat. Fianna Fail could put up Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Pol Pot in Cork South Central and two of them would be elected.

[RizzlaRebel]

For Cork City to prosper and create the critical mass it needs to compete with Dublin I see 2 very important projects that need to go ahead.

1. The bridge for the docklands, this is essential, the HH development promises so much in just one development. It would give a big kick start to the docklands in general, there would be the events centre, a real landmark building of 30 floors, and large office plates. This is very important, lest you forget Google wanted to locate in Cork but the required office space and quality was not available. This would allow Cork to compete in a number of different areas.

2. The upgrading of the Ringaskiddy Rd, the port is essential as well. The port of cork are in talks with opening a route to Santander, this would allow imports to enter through Cork rather than using the land bridge through France and Britain. The potential here is massive and give an unbelieveable boost to the city. We are strategically placed for this type of development and don't forget our deepwater harbour.



These 2 developemts IMHO would help to spur other developments for example if a much large chunk of imports were coming through Cork the Limerick Rd would have to be upgraded at a faster pace to distribute these goods to the west, hence the North Ring and South Link roundabouts as well, even the Kerry Rd.

The docklands development could bring major job creation to the city. As another poster mentioned Kent Station doesn't handle the volume of passengers that Heuston etc do but what if you had thousands more getting the train from Blarney etc and Midleton to work in the docklands then it would have to be upgraded. Luas line from the city centre etc etc etc

As well as giving a major boost to Cork and the south in general, in the short term they would provide much needed construction jobs.


Anyway these are the 2 that don't want to see go the way of Cork airport!! While I am on that point, more multinationals in Cork gives a greater incentive for US flights......it just goes on!

I would love if the infrastructure was put in first but that is not the way much as we all hate it so lets get the infrastructure built that would be the greatest catalyst for further developments!!!

[Cork Extremist]

secession is our only hope!

if we then take possession of the gas fields, fishing rights, haulbowline, cork harbour, etc and all other natural resources in the cork area then we have some chance of success in the new era of Cork independence.

Secede!!!!!!!!

Too right Mr. Comic!

[Arcadia]

For Cork City to prosper and create the critical mass it needs to compete with Dublin I see 2 very important projects that need to go ahead.

1. The bridge for the docklands, this is essential, the HH development promises so much in just one development. It would give a big kick start to the docklands in general, there would be the events centre, a real landmark building of 30 floors, and large office plates. This is very important, lest you forget Google wanted to locate in Cork but the required office space and quality was not available. This would allow Cork to compete in a number of different areas.

2. The upgrading of the Ringaskiddy Rd, the port is essential as well. The port of cork are in talks with opening a route to Santander, this would allow imports to enter through Cork rather than using the land bridge through France and Britain. The potential here is massive and give an unbelieveable boost to the city. We are strategically placed for this type of development and don't forget our deepwater harbour.



These 2 developemts IMHO would help to spur other developments for example if a much large chunk of imports were coming through Cork the Limerick Rd would have to be upgraded at a faster pace to distribute these goods to the west, hence the North Ring and South Link roundabouts as well, even the Kerry Rd.

The docklands development could bring major job creation to the city. As another poster mentioned Kent Station doesn't handle the volume of passengers that Heuston etc do but what if you had thousands more getting the train from Blarney etc and Midleton to work in the docklands then it would have to be upgraded. Luas line from the city centre etc etc etc

As well as giving a major boost to Cork and the south in general, in the short term they would provide much needed construction jobs.


Anyway these are the 2 that don't want to see go the way of Cork airport!! While I am on that point, more multinationals in Cork gives a greater incentive for US flights......it just goes on!

I would love if the infrastructure was put in first but that is not the way much as we all hate it so lets get the infrastructure built that would be the greatest catalyst for further developments!!!

I would be very confident that the private sector developments in for planning in the Docklands will proceed but Government help must be given for infrastructure.

Cork is a beautiful city centre core which is improving all the time and a topograpy,heritage,h istory,harbour,acces s to West Cork & Kerry and continental European feel to it that Dublin,Limerick etc can only dream about.

[Cork Extremist]

I know Dan Boyle used to be on here before (seemed to disappear after he lost his seat) and I'm sure there are other politicians snooping around too but it would be good if they posted in this forum. Once the langers are kept out in the Langers Forum they should be immune from abuse.

Alternatively maybe we could elect somebody in this forum to voice concerns on behalf of the PROC forum and email politicians posting their replies here. That would help the politicians save face but still engage with us albeit indirectly.

[Arcadia]

I know Dan Boyle used to be on here before (seemed to disappear after he lost his seat) and I'm sure there are other politicians snooping around too but it would be good if they posted in this forum. Once the langers are kept out in the Langers Forum they should be immune from abuse.

Alternatively maybe we could elect somebody in this forum to voice concerns on behalf of the PROC forum and email politicians posting their replies here. That would help the politicians save face but still engage with us albeit indirectly.

Dan and the Greens are in hiding after last weeks report that Canada,Ireland & Norway are the 3 countries will be least affected by so called "Climate Change"

The Greens won't fool anyone at the next election nor will Michael McGrath FF.

Could'nt give a monkeys about Cork either of them.

[DBTD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cork Extremist
I know Dan Boyle used to be on here before (seemed to disappear after he lost his seat) and I'm sure there are other politicians snooping around too but it would be good if they posted in this forum. Once the langers are kept out in the Langers Forum they should be immune from abuse.

Alternatively maybe we could elect somebody in this forum to voice concerns on behalf of the PROC forum and email politicians posting their replies here. That would help the politicians save face but still engage with us albeit indirectly.

Dan and the Greens are in hiding after last weeks report that Canada,Ireland & Norway are the 3 countries will be least affected by so called "Climate Change"

The Greens won't fool anyone at the next election nor will Michael McGrath FF.

Could'nt give a monkeys about Cork either of them.

I visit the site quite often. I post less frequently but last posted on the 4th of July. On an earlier post someone was 'quoting' John Gormley as saying that Haulbowline wouldn't be cleaned up due to cost considerations. He hasn't said that, he doesn't believe that and it isn't what is going to happen.
On the wider issue I'm quite prepared to engage with anyone on this site at any time, even someone as prejudiced as Arcadia.

[Arcadia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cork Extremist
I know Dan Boyle used to be on here before (seemed to disappear after he lost his seat) and I'm sure there are other politicians snooping around too but it would be good if they posted in this forum. Once the langers are kept out in the Langers Forum they should be immune from abuse.

Alternatively maybe we could elect somebody in this forum to voice concerns on behalf of the PROC forum and email politicians posting their replies here. That would help the politicians save face but still engage with us albeit indirectly.



I visit the site quite often. I post less frequently but last posted on the 4th of July. On an earlier post someone was 'quoting' John Gormley as saying that Haulbowline wouldn't be cleaned up due to cost considerations. He hasn't said that, he doesn't believe that and it isn't what is going to happen.
On the wider issue I'm quite prepared to engage with anyone on this site at any time, even someone as prejudiced as Arcadia.


Dan I voted for yourself & McGrath in the last election and voted Yes to Lisbon also just feel after years of Government procrastination in realtion to Transport,Roads,Rail ,Docklands tax breaks there is always a reason or some quango to blame for not doing something.Remember all politics are local the next time you sit in Buswell's with you Government colleagues.

Lots of great ideas and theories coming up to election times but very little comfort stuck on the Sarsfield Road and Bandon Road roundabout at 5.20pm today.

[Arcadia]

Postscript - I am off now around France & Germany for a few weeks mostly on state subsidised public transport in cities around the size of Cork and smaller by tram,Underground,Bus eswith integrated ticketing (imagine that),bike hire in even clean pedestrianised streets.

Probably plenty of reports from transport commitees sitting on shelves in Molesworth Street for similar ideas for Ireland but what can you do ?

[corkoniense]

Since we've got your ear Dan. What about a directly elected mayor for cork city? What about a serious extension of the boundaries? What about a proper electoral system so that that ballincollig/carrigaline electoral area no longer elects have the county council members as the Bantry Skib area??????

Regards,
Corkoniense

[Arcadia]

Since we've got your ear Dan. What about a directly elected mayor for cork city? What about a serious extension of the boundaries? What about a proper electoral system so that that ballincollig/carrigaline electoral area no longer elects have the county council members as the Bantry Skib area??????

Regards,
Corkoniense

Whats the latest on the Boundary extension BTW ?

Has it gone to some sort of arbitatration ?

I live in the county but only 5 minutes from City Hall which is a farce.

Handy for buying Polish coal in the winter though:mrgreen:

[Some user]

I voted for DBTD too. I was pissed off with people for voting him out and Clune in but I've no doubt he'll be back. I think the Haulbowline thing is very complicated and some of the private contractors involved might not be the whistle blowing angels they appear to be. To be fair, DBTD is no longer a TD so there's only so much weight he has at government - although Im sure he has Gormelys mobile!

With regards to the point of TDs, senators or councillors engaging with PROC users it would only work if the comments arent sniping - I dont know what the Bushells reference is but its obviously something Arcadia thinks he/she has over DBTD and its unnecessary to include it. Politicians are not going to come in here and post if theyreonly going to get abuse. I respect Dan for coming here in the first place. Maybe the mods can enforce it?

It would be a great resource to be able to engage with public representitives though - maybe they should post their news or press releases here. It would have to be chaired or monitored or controlled in some way though otherwise the idiots will ruin it.

[Arcadia]

DBTD is fine and I have nothing over him whatsoever and at least he has the balls to come on here which can only be welcomed.

Its pure frustratation at times getting responses and discourse from T.D.'sat times - I wrote e-mails to all sitting T'D's before the last election asking a few policy questions in relation to Cork etc. and only 1 got back to me.

[DBTD]

On the questions asked the City Council have made a submission on extending the city boundary. Using the usual methods this could take years. There is a fast track method used for Limerick last year that could see this done within two years. I'm encouraging John Gormley to go down this road.
The legislation for a Dublin elected mayor will contain the mechanism on how similar offices will follow in other cities.
The survey on public transport options will report next year before the local elections and will recommend either a light rail or a guided bus system.
Bushells I presume is Buswells Hotel across the road from Leinster House, that I don't go into very often, but I presume is seen as representing the Ivory Tower that politicians are meant to live in.

[jd26]

Dan, while the LUAS for Cork idea is lovely in theory, it took about 7 years between the decision to build it and actually getting it up and running. If this report arrives next year, we'd be looking at 2016 before it was built. That's eight more years of rubbish public transport.

So in the mean time, can you for God's sake get something done about the buses. They're infrequent, vandalised and often full if you're not getting on at the first stop. You can't get a transfer ticket. You can't get a daily ticket. Weekly tickets require you to use the bus a ridiculous number of times before they become economic.

I'm not particularly ideologically motivated about whether it should be private sub-contractors to a Cork Transport Authority, a Cork Bus Company or whether it can be done inside the existing framework of Bus Eireann (although I really doubt this; there's a culture of low standards there), but we really, really need to see some action on this.

BTW I've seen guided buses in action. They are worse than useless. All the disadvantages of buses (capacity mainly) combined with all the disadvantages of trams (fixed route)

[RizzlaRebel]

Dan it is coming from some quarters that the docklands will not get funding for the bridge until at least 2010. If so this is bizarre to say the least and another kick in the face for Cork.

Don't they see that this kick start a massive development providing numerous jobs and helping us to ride through the rough economic climate???? And the question I really want to know is what our representatives in government going to do if this is true???? If this goes the way of the airport I will have lost all faith in politics!!

[Unknown Legend]

So it takes into account people who live outside of Dublin who work there?

Figures are figures. It was also in an article either in the examiner
on echo can't quite remember.
Believe it or not but I do not lie.

[DBTD]

Yes Gateways funding has been postponed but I'm hoping that an announcement that funding will be given will help. On public transport we're arguing that if the long finger is being put on, than lower cost initiative such as extra buses should be fast tracked, if you pardon the pun.

[Arcadia]

Yes Gateways funding has been postponed but I'm hoping that an announcement that funding will be given will help. On public transport we're arguing that if the long finger is being put on, than lower cost initiative such as extra buses should be fast tracked, if you pardon the pun.

Cork shafted yet again.

[RizzlaRebel]

Cork shafted yet again.

Well I think that is the rest of the country shafted except for Dublin!

DTOB question for you......how can the Limerick to Cork road not be considered an inter-urban route yet roads from Dublin to everywhere else are??? The all roads lead to Dublin mentality is a bit sickening and then when they do try to sort something out ie decentralisation they totally mess it up!!! What was the point in decentralising jobs from Cork City to Macroom??? The Spacial Strategy is what decentralisation should have been based on and Tom Parlon should have been told like it or leave it (suppose he was only trying the best for his constituents)

[Arcadia]

Well I think that is the rest of the country shafted except for Dublin!

DTOB question for you......how can the Limerick to Cork road not be considered an inter-urban route yet roads from Dublin to everywhere else are??? The all roads lead to Dublin mentality is a bit sickening and then when they do try to sort something out ie decentralisation they totally mess it up!!! What was the point in decentralising jobs from Cork City to Macroom??? The Spacial Strategy is what decentralisation should have been based on and Tom Parlon should have been told like it or leave it (suppose he was only trying the best for his constituents)

True.

The ammount of road,rail,Luas,Metro and general infrastructure investment in our low density capital dwarfs the rest of the country.The Cork - Limerick motorway will be up there with the Western Rail Corridor on the priority list for exclusion.

Leinster including Dublins badly planned commuter counties and the Dublin - Belfast corridor is where investment will be.

[DBTD]

Yep we continue to have a radial transport system that goes in and out of Dublin, with public transport continuing to be the cinderella in terms of funding. In terms of delay or postponement, I think Dublin public transport proposals may be the first to feel the heat. There may be opportunities for additional expenditure on low cost public transport projects outside of Dublin.

[Proinsias]

Yep we continue to have a radial transport system that goes in and out of Dublin, with public transport continuing to be the cinderella in terms of funding. In terms of delay or postponement, I think Dublin public transport proposals may be the first to feel the heat. There may be opportunities for additional expenditure on low cost public transport projects outside of Dublin.


For a hub and spoke based system to work, you need the hub to work, otherwise, it's pointless.

Here's what the current state of the country's hub is:

On the M50, delays on the northbound off-ramp for J9 Red Cow are now tailing back to J10 Ballymount. Also slow northbound from the toll plaza to J6 Blanchardstown. * Southbound it's very slow from J9 Red Cow to J10 Ballymount, and again from J16 Cherrywood to J17 M11.

So basically, J9-10 both directions is solid, without an accident to snarl things up.

I'll resist the temptation to go for the obvious heart metaphor but if you're going to base all national travel around one route in Dublin, it had better be working.

[doppellanger]

Ah, youse are a bunch of whiners. The Fermoy bypass is a lovely road and the Mitchelstown one looks even better.

From the airport to, say, Kilworth is almost all dual carriageway now, making it easier for me when I fly back and easier for all you guys when you have to emigrate next year because of recession.

[RizzlaRebel]

Ah, youse are a bunch of whiners. The Fermoy bypass is a lovely road and the Mitchelstown one looks even better.

From the airport to, say, Kilworth is almost all dual carriageway now, making it easier for me when I fly back and easier for all you guys when you have to emigrate next year because of recession.

Personally, as I have said before, I would prefer the bridge for the docklands and the port of cork relocation to go ahead before other projects as I feel these would improve Cork's economy immensely and its critical mass!

Pity the government don't have the foresight to see how the docklands bridge could kickstart a new phase in the cork economy!!

[Arcadia]

Personally, as I have said before, I would prefer the bridge for the docklands and the port of cork relocation to go ahead before other projects as I feel these would improve Cork's economy immensely and its critical mass!

Pity the government don't have the foresight to see how the docklands bridge could kickstart a new phase in the cork economy!!

Short term infrastructural cutbacks will cost the Government long term and the local economy in the short to medium term.Jobs,VAT,Invest ment all on ice as a result.Tackle the public service unions would show some leadership and get the country in a better financial state.

The largest urban development planned outside of Dublin should be getting every State & E.U. support available but this is Ireland.

Think of the ammount of money wasted in procrastinating over the School of Music,Cork Airport & Kinsale Road roundabout etc as an example.

[RizzlaRebel]

Short term infrastructural cutbacks will cost the Government long term and the local economy in the short to medium term.Jobs,VAT,Invest ment all on ice as a result.Tackle the public service unions would show some leadership and get the country in a better financial state.

The largest urban development planned outside of Dublin should be getting every State & E.U. support available but this is Ireland.

Think of the ammount of money wasted in procrastinating over the School of Music,Cork Airport & Kinsale Road roundabout etc as an example.


I agree with you totally, in simple terms:

1 bridge = thousands of jobs

it's a no brainer!!!! To be honest (for the ears of DBTD) we shouldn't have to go to a gateway fund for this type of infrastructure!!!!

[bosco]

3. Pfizer are still in Little Island and with expansion at Eli Lilly in Kinsale the regions continued strength in Bio/Pharma will hopefully continue through potential troubled times. Hopefully.


Little island plant to be closed by the end of next year, with the loss of 190 jobs. The future of the 300 people employed at the Loughbeg plant isn't looking too bright either.

I got a call from Red C the other day for one of their polls... a lot of unrelated questions but most seemed to be about establishing what is the level of awareness of Transport 21. I wonder if this was commissioned by an independent party like a newspaper, or if it's a case of the department of Transport wasting more of our money trying to find out if we're aware of how much of our money they're wasting.

I had lunch with a friend earlier who recalled seeing some Bus Eireann promo material proclaiming that they've invested more in a single route out of Dublin (Ashbourne) than the entire Cork city service. Don't have a source for this but I'd believe it.

They'd be better off diverting a few shillings for the ESB meter at Cork airport.

But hey, it's not all doom and gloom!

[jd26]

Transport 21 allocated more money for advertising and promotion than it does for the bus services in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford combined.

[Actin The Sham]

I'd rather be run by a "political elite and a bunch of unelected bureaucrats," in Brussels than a "political elite and a bunch of unelected bureaucrats," in Dublin.


At least on the mainland they can get major transport projects completed.


These chattering classes and unelected bureaucrats in Dublin are laughing at us, and DBTD and his ilk are fig leaves.


It's time for change.

[Actin The Sham]

Montpellier in France is a prime example of how to run a regional city. It is clean, well planned, has an excellent tram (the same type as the hornby luas thing in Dublin, except that it is joined up), and has a thriving high tech industrial base which is served by the local university.

The main difference between it and Cork is that it doesn't have to go to Paris looking for funding for every bus shelter. Cork unfortunately has to go to Dublin for every penny, only to be told that the Sarsfield Road and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts are not "priorities."


We need a directly elected mayor, and properly funded autonomous city governments.

Only a few short weeks ago, we had everyone mouthing off about a "democratic deficit," and "let the people have their say," in relation to the Lisbon treaty referendum.


But now we are happy to lie down under the weight of Europes most overly centralised capital, Dublin, and it's bloated overweight unelected bureaucracy which makes decisions relating to Cork through the perspective of what is best for Dublin.

It's time for change.

Have we the balls to do it?

Have we the balls to form a Cork Peoples Party? A Southern League?

Or do we want to be like Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Micheal Martin, and all the rest and try to progress up through the ranks of Dublin based parties by being nice boys and defending the indefensible in order to stay on the right side of our Dublin based head offices?

[Chuck Norri]

Bosco for taoiseach!

[ho chi feen]

ATS for Tanaiste then!

[doppellanger]

The fat guy on Patrick Street for mayor!

[Actin The Sham]

The fat guy on Patrick Street for mayor!

That really narrows it down.....

[ho chi feen]

That really narrows it down.....

Presumably he means the Echo seller, you know, the guy who's a mult-millionaire... :)

[rebs23]

It's time for change.

Have we the balls to do it?

Have we the balls to form a Cork Peoples Party? A Southern League?

Or do we want to be like Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Micheal Martin, and all the rest and try to progress up through the ranks of Dublin based parties by being nice boys and defending the indefensible in order to stay on the right side of our Dublin based head offices?

Alright, lets go for it, seriously, a new political party. I'd call it the Regional Party and campaign for a few select issues;
A new City and Harbour Council for all of Cork and its suburbs, directly elected mayor, tax raising powers, population 350,000
The N28 extension to the country's most important industrial bases, Ringaskiddy
Decentralisation of a Government Department to Cork, as the second city we should have one already
The North Ring Road and Motorway to Limerick
Tax Breaks for the Docklands and the release of the Gateway funding for the bridge
A complete review of Transport 21, especially considering that all the spending is concentrated on expensive ill thought out and unneccessary rail projects in Dublin
More buses for Cork City routes and less of the 10 year old hand me downs from Dublin Bus

I think that about covers the main demands we should have. Any takers, keep it simple with a promise to disband once these have been met.
Lets face the only area that Irish politicans can really affect change is in terms of regional policy, so lets make it the issue for the next 10 years.
Anyone else?

[Chelsea Hotel #2]

Montpellier in France is a prime example of how to run a regional city. It is clean, well planned, has an excellent tram (the same type as the hornby luas thing in Dublin, except that it is joined up), and has a thriving high tech industrial base which is served by the local university.

The main difference between it and Cork is that it doesn't have to go to Paris looking for funding for every bus shelter. Cork unfortunately has to go to Dublin for every penny, only to be told that the Sarsfield Road and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts are not "priorities."


We need a directly elected mayor, and properly funded autonomous city governments.

Only a few short weeks ago, we had everyone mouthing off about a "democratic deficit," and "let the people have their say," in relation to the Lisbon treaty referendum.


But now we are happy to lie down under the weight of Europes most overly centralised capital, Dublin, and it's bloated overweight unelected bureaucracy which makes decisions relating to Cork through the perspective of what is best for Dublin.

It's time for change.

Have we the balls to do it?

Have we the balls to form a Cork Peoples Party? A Southern League?

Or do we want to be like Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Micheal Martin, and all the rest and try to progress up through the ranks of Dublin based parties by being nice boys and defending the indefensible in order to stay on the right side of our Dublin based head offices?


Some Fair points alright - not least the Lisbon comparison.

But its not all about the city which doesn't have the scale or critical mass. There's a far more viable regional proposition that could and should be developed. In fact the southern region may well represent the only viable counterpole to the eastern conurbation. It sure as hell won't be the West (Atlantic Corridor anyone???)

In theory there's nothing new in this with regional autonomy working well in Spain amongst other examples. It would be the making of Cork.

By the way has Cork County Council just given up? I'm struggling to think of what they actually do anymore.

[Arcadia]

Montpellier in France is a prime example of how to run a regional city. It is clean, well planned, has an excellent tram (the same type as the hornby luas thing in Dublin, except that it is joined up), and has a thriving high tech industrial base which is served by the local university.

The main difference between it and Cork is that it doesn't have to go to Paris looking for funding for every bus shelter. Cork unfortunately has to go to Dublin for every penny, only to be told that the Sarsfield Road and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts are not "priorities."


We need a directly elected mayor, and properly funded autonomous city governments.

Only a few short weeks ago, we had everyone mouthing off about a "democratic deficit," and "let the people have their say," in relation to the Lisbon treaty referendum.


But now we are happy to lie down under the weight of Europes most overly centralised capital, Dublin, and it's bloated overweight unelected bureaucracy which makes decisions relating to Cork through the perspective of what is best for Dublin.

It's time for change.

Have we the balls to do it?

Have we the balls to form a Cork Peoples Party? A Southern League?

Or do we want to be like Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Micheal Martin, and all the rest and try to progress up through the ranks of Dublin based parties by being nice boys and defending the indefensible in order to stay on the right side of our Dublin based head offices?

Go for it.

I did enough to expose John Dennehy at the last election as he would'nt even consider some of your points which I made to him.

T.D.'s and unelectable Jerry Buttimer types will be shuffling around our doorsteps soon enough promising the earth.

Just spend most of July in France and smaller cities / regions than Cork have trams,ferries,adequa te infrastructure and services for the people rather than at the mercy of big developers who want globalisation Ireland to resemble any High St U.K.I get to know the local artisans and retailers who have not changes their family run businesses for years while we get TK Maxx and other such shite with every second building a bookies or a mobile phone shop.Cowen the shyster mouthing off about E.U.Regulations why Cork could'nt get tax breaks for Docklands & screwed for V.R.T.when it suits themselves expecting a yes vote for Lisbon.

Cork has infinite potential.

Fantastic geography,location and people.

Moribund politicians across ALL parties.

[juan pablo]

We dont need a regional party just a better leaner national Government combined with stronger local Government, not gonna happen under FF.

30 thousand people gave their first preferences to messrs Clune, McGrath, Martin & Coveney last time round, you get what you vote for. I dont care how nice they are, what their dad/family did or whatever bit of local do gooderness they've done they are still shit national Pols.

All this talk of Corks potential but so long as our local TDs are this lot we look like Mayo.

Lynch aint up to much either.

[doppellanger]

Go for it.

I did enough to expose John Dennehy at the last election as he would'nt even consider some of your points which I made to him.

T.D.'s and unelectable Jerry Buttimer types will be shuffling around our doorsteps soon enough promising the earth.

Just spend most of July in France and smaller cities / regions than Cork have trams,ferries,adequa te infrastructure and services for the people rather than at the mercy of big developers who want globalisation Ireland to resemble any High St U.K.I get to know the local artisans and retailers who have not changes their family run businesses for years while we get TK Maxx and other such shite with every second building a bookies or a mobile phone shop.Cowen the shyster mouthing off about E.U.Regulations why Cork could'nt get tax breaks for Docklands & screwed for V.R.T.when it suits themselves expecting a yes vote for Lisbon.

Cork has infinite potential.

Fantastic geography,location and people.

Moribund politicians across ALL parties.

only part of that post that made sense was "Move to France".

[Actin The Sham]

We dont need a regional party just a better leaner national Government combined with stronger local Government, not gonna happen under FF.

30 thousand people gave their first preferences to messrs Clune, McGrath, Martin & Coveney last time round, you get what you vote for. I dont care how nice they are, what their dad/family did or whatever bit of local do gooderness they've done they are still shit national Pols.

All this talk of Corks potential but so long as our local TDs are this lot we look like Mayo.

Lynch aint up to much either.

I disagree.

We need more autonomy, the unelected bureaucrats and political elite in Dublin have failed us miserably.

A directly elected mayor and a municipal transport authority would be a start. We have been shafted by unelected quangos like the NRA in Dublin for long enough.

[juan pablo]

I disagree.

We need more autonomy, the unelected bureaucrats and political elite in Dublin have failed us miserably.

A directly elected mayor and a municipal transport authority would be a start. We have been shafted by unelected quangos like the NRA in Dublin for long enough.

To be fair the NRA only build what the Government gives them money for, that Government deemed the inter urbans programme to be more important then completion of projects like the SRR upgrades, its not just in Cork that projects that have been put on hold.

We dont need to complicate the issue by talking about autonomy and devolved Government, we dont need that kind of change to achieve relatively simple things like new roads and public transport. We just need a better quality of politician at both local & national level representing us more determined to defend the local interest* rather then just lie down and roll over whenever bad decisions, which negatively impact this region, are made.

*the local interest doesnt include small minded nimbyism of which our local pols are so good at. the CSD crowd of which Cllr Buttimer is a patron represent all that is wrong with with this country.

[bosco]

By the way has Cork County Council just given up? I'm struggling to think of what they actually do anymore.

There was talk of having a directly elected mayor but the councillors seem to be shitting themselves at the prospect.

[Actin The Sham]

To be fair the NRA only build what the Government gives them money for, that Government deemed the inter urbans programme to be more important then completion of projects like the SRR upgrades, its not just in Cork that projects that have been put on hold.

We dont need to complicate the issue by talking about autonomy and devolved Government, we dont need that kind of change to achieve relatively simple things like new roads and public transport. We just need a better quality of politician at both local & national level representing us more determined to defend the local interest* rather then just lie down and roll over whenever bad decisions, which negatively impact this region, are made.

*the local interest doesnt include small minded nimbyism of which our local pols are so good at. the CSD crowd of which Cllr Buttimer is a patron represent all that is wrong with with this country.



Sorry, but I disagree.

Firstly your point about the "Interurbans" programme.

A true "Interurban" road network would link all of the main urban centres together. But, the unelected bureaucrats and political elite in Dublin have deemed "Interurban" to mean "Roads To And From Dublin."

This means that we have a motorway from Dublin to wherever most of the Dublin based unelected bureaucrats live, and improved roads to most of the other centres, providing you are coming from Dublin.

If you are driving from Cork to Athlone, then the templemore rosscrea road could in no way be described as adequate. If you are driving from Limerick to Waterford, then the road is a disgrace. If you are driving from Cork to Limerick, then think of this post the next time you are driving between Newtwopothouse and Buttevant. If you are driving from Cork to Tralee then think of the unelected bureaucrats in Leinster when you are stuck in traffic in Macroom.

"Interurbans?"

You've swallowed the horseshit.

Uncomplicate things now: autonomy for Cork.

[KolaKubes]

Montpellier in France is a prime example of how to run a regional city. It is clean, well planned, has an excellent tram (the same type as the hornby luas thing in Dublin, except that it is joined up), and has a thriving high tech industrial base which is served by the local university.

The main difference between it and Cork is that it doesn't have to go to Paris looking for funding for every bus shelter. Cork unfortunately has to go to Dublin for every penny, only to be told that the Sarsfield Road and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts are not "priorities."


We need a directly elected mayor, and properly funded autonomous city governments.

Only a few short weeks ago, we had everyone mouthing off about a "democratic deficit," and "let the people have their say," in relation to the Lisbon treaty referendum.


But now we are happy to lie down under the weight of Europes most overly centralised capital, Dublin, and it's bloated overweight unelected bureaucracy which makes decisions relating to Cork through the perspective of what is best for Dublin.

It's time for change.

Have we the balls to do it?

Have we the balls to form a Cork Peoples Party? A Southern League?

Or do we want to be like Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Micheal Martin, and all the rest and try to progress up through the ranks of Dublin based parties by being nice boys and defending the indefensible in order to stay on the right side of our Dublin based head offices?

We're all talk down here.

"People's Republic"

Let's be clear, we're just as Irish as the next place but we certainly have our own identity as well.

More importantly, Cork is the only realistic alternative development hub to Dublin.

It is already a much larger place than the Limericks or Galways and has fantastic development potential but we need to be allowed a degree of autonomy from Dublin.

The only acceptable recourse is a directly elected mayor with limited capacity to retain tax in Cork, their own budget and decision making powers which can supersede those of the national authorities.

I would like Cork removed from any notions of an "Atlantic corridor" - that should be primarily about developing between Sligo, Galway and Limerick but good road infrastructure between here and Limerick could be done in parallel.

Rather, we have a situation where Belfast is a hub for links with Scotland, Dublin with England.

I think the obvious one for Cork is to be the link to France and the rest of the continent. We should play on that and any development plan for the city should look to mimic the architectural styles from that part of the world.

[Arcadia]

We're all talk down here.

"People's Republic"

Let's be clear, we're just as Irish as the next place but we certainly have our own identity as well.

More importantly, Cork is the only realistic alternative development hub to Dublin.

It is already a much larger place than the Limericks or Galways and has fantastic development potential but we need to be allowed a degree of autonomy from Dublin.

The only acceptable recourse is a directly elected mayor with limited capacity to retain tax in Cork, their own budget and decision making powers which can supersede those of the national authorities.

I would like Cork removed from any notions of an "Atlantic corridor" - that should be primarily about developing between Sligo, Galway and Limerick but good road infrastructure between here and Limerick could be done in parallel.

Rather, we have a situation where Belfast is a hub for links with Scotland, Dublin with England.

I think the obvious one for Cork is to be the link to France and the rest of the continent. We should play on that and any development plan for the city should look to mimic the architectural styles from that part of the world.

True and links to Spain also.Time to do it ourselves and get over the fact somehow that Dublin holds the purse.

[juan pablo]

Sorry, but I disagree.

Firstly your point about the "Interurbans" programme.

A true "Interurban" road network would link all of the main urban centres together. But, the unelected bureaucrats and political elite in Dublin have deemed "Interurban" to mean "Roads To And From Dublin."

This means that we have a motorway from Dublin to wherever most of the Dublin based unelected bureaucrats live, and improved roads to most of the other centres, providing you are coming from Dublin.

If you are driving from Cork to Athlone, then the templemore rosscrea road could in no way be described as adequate. If you are driving from Limerick to Waterford, then the road is a disgrace. If you are driving from Cork to Limerick, then think of this post the next time you are driving between Newtwopothouse and Buttevant. If you are driving from Cork to Tralee then think of the unelected bureaucrats in Leinster when you are stuck in traffic in Macroom.

"Interurbans?"

You've swallowed the horseshit.

Uncomplicate things now: autonomy for Cork.

No you've got a ridiculous sense of entitlement out of all proportion to Corks size, in effect you are just demonstrating the gombeenism that is a classic symptom of me feiners from all parts of this island.

The population of this island does not justify full Motorway between one City and 5 large towns (thats what Cork is btw) nevermind DC between places like Cork & Tralee which will never be anywhere near capacity.

In reality just new build single carriage roads or low cost 2+2 would suffice between the regional cities (which may be happening in Limerick - Waterford on the N72 when it was clear that road was down the list of NRA priorities for a full blown 'inter urban' Motorway). The N20 is a cart track, it could be replaced in two years with 2+2 for certain sections and new build single carriageway for the rest. But instead the gold plated option of a brand new M20 is being planned* this is complete overkill for replacing a road that is dangerous but has nowhere near the numbers now or in the future needed for a Motorway.

*and it may never be built, at least before 2015 anyway. Thats just great.

[KolaKubes]

No you've got a ridiculous sense of entitlement out of all proportion to Corks size, in effect you are just demonstrating the gombeenism that is a classic symptom of me feiners from all parts of this island.

The population of this island does not justify full Motorway between one City and 5 large towns (thats what Cork is btw) nevermind DC between places like Cork & Tralee which will never be anywhere near capacity.

In reality just new build single carriage roads or low cost 2+2 would suffice between the regional cities (which may be happening in Limerick - Waterford on the N72 when it was clear that road was down the list of NRA priorities for a full blown 'inter urban' Motorway). The N20 is a cart track, it could be replaced in two years with 2+2 for certain sections and new build single carriageway for the rest. But instead the gold plated option of a brand new M20 is being planned* this is complete overkill for replacing a road that is dangerous but has nowhere near the numbers now or in the future needed for a Motorway.

*and it may never be built, at least before 2015 anyway. Thats just great.

[Bangs head off desk]

This is precisely the problem.

The road between Cork and Dublin services population centres of 500k and 1m with probably another 300k in between.

It is the main artery of the country by an absolute street.

I hate the way Cork is lumped in with places like Galway and Sligo.

Population of Cork urban area is 250k plus.

Population of Limerick urban area is 91k.

Population of Galway urban area is 72k.

Yet, you have to follow the signs for Limerick to get to Cork out of Dublin.

Who is trying to sell us this shit?

I'm not even sure the Dubs are that bothered with us one way or the other.

My betting is it's the vested interests in safe FF parts of the country.

[Actin The Sham]

No you've got a ridiculous sense of entitlement out of all proportion to Corks size, in effect you are just demonstrating the gombeenism that is a classic symptom of me feiners from all parts of this island.

The population of this island does not justify full Motorway between one City and 5 large towns (thats what Cork is btw) nevermind DC between places like Cork & Tralee which will never be anywhere near capacity.

In reality just new build single carriage roads or low cost 2+2 would suffice between the regional cities (which may be happening in Limerick - Waterford on the N72 when it was clear that road was down the list of NRA priorities for a full blown 'inter urban' Motorway). The N20 is a cart track, it could be replaced in two years with 2+2 for certain sections and new build single carriageway for the rest. But instead the gold plated option of a brand new M20 is being planned* this is complete overkill for replacing a road that is dangerous but has nowhere near the numbers now or in the future needed for a Motorway.

*and it may never be built, at least before 2015 anyway. Thats just great.


"Gombeenism" to complain about the NRA saying that roads to Dublin take priority over the Sarsfield and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts?

That is the attitude that has us in the most overly centralised country in Europe.


And by the way, I never suggested that we should have motorways from Cork to everywhere.

Just enhanced roadways and importantly, bypasses.

Just believe what you think you read rather than what was actually written, and continue with your namecalling.

[Arcadia]

"Gombeenism" to complain about the NRA saying that roads to Dublin take priority over the Sarsfield and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts?

That is the attitude that has us in the most overly centralised country in Europe.


And by the way, I never suggested that we should have motorways from Cork to everywhere.

Just enhanced roadways and importantly, bypasses.

Just believe what you think you read rather than what was actually written, and continue with your namecalling.

Hear hear.

Thats also why Dublin has so many problems,decentralis ation was meant to address part of the Capitals problems and all of the hassles of a big centralised low density sprawl and very few advantaged of a big city.Cork is probably the only other city in the Republic that has enough critical mass to attract investment in all areas and contribute to balanced regional development.

[juan pablo]

[Bangs head off desk]

This is precisely the problem.

The road between Cork and Dublin services population centres of 500k and 1m with probably another 300k in between.

It is the main artery of the country by an absolute street.

I hate the way Cork is lumped in with places like Galway and Sligo.

Population of Cork urban area is 250k plus.

Population of Limerick urban area is 91k.

Population of Galway urban area is 72k.

Yet, you have to follow the signs for Limerick to get to Cork out of Dublin.

Who is trying to sell us this shit?

I'm not even sure the Dubs are that bothered with us one way or the other.

My betting is it's the vested interests in safe FF parts of the country.

Look i hate to break the cozy consensus here but having a motorway to Cork is complete overkill anyway, the new M8 sections are fabulous well engineered pieces of work but are replacing sections of road which have traffic numbers of less then 15K a day, in otherwords complete overkill.Twould have been much better to either upgrade the entire Cork/Dublin railway or roads in and around Cork rather then build the entire M8 to over specified expensive designs.

It doesnt really matter that you have to take the M7 Limerick road from the M50 (which is the main economic artery of the country not the M8) to get to Cork, its how the spoke system works, what do you really want M1 to Cork coz we're like the second city? road numbering doesnt work like that.

[KolaKubes]

Hear hear.

Thats also why Dublin has so many problems,decentralis ation was meant to address part of the Capitals problems and all of the hassles of a big centralised low density sprawl and very few advantaged of a big city.Cork is probably the only other city in the Republic that has enough critical mass to attract investment in all areas and contribute to balanced regional development.

Hell, even think about their plans for the development of Belfast.

What's that, an area of about 500k?

With far fewer of the advantages Cork has.

Why shouldn't we ambitious about plans for this neck of the woods.

[juan pablo]

"Gombeenism" to complain about the NRA saying that roads to Dublin take priority over the Sarsfield and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts?

That is the attitude that has us in the most overly centralised country in Europe.


And by the way, I never suggested that we should have motorways from Cork to everywhere.

Just enhanced roadways and importantly, bypasses.

Just believe what you think you read rather than what was actually written, and continue with your namecalling.

No i agree with you, the Roundabouts should have been a priority over the Dublin road. The Government decided different not the NRA(they dont decide which projects get built, they just build them). Yet people like Michael Mcgrath and Michael Martin said in 2007 that the SRR roundabouts were a priority, yet when they get into Government they just toe the line.

It ties back in with my point earlier in the thread, talk of autonomy, DEMs and new regional taxation policies for Cork are all well and good, but really all we need are better politicians then the ones you and i elected in 2004 and 2007. Its really that simple. We elect people like Martin time after time despite their uselessness as politicians and as Cork representatives. We're all gombeens if we're electing those fools.

[KolaKubes]

Look i hate to break the cozy consensus here but having a motorway to Cork is complete overkill anyway, the new M8 sections are fabulous well engineered pieces of work but are replacing sections of road which have traffic numbers of less then 15K a day, in otherwords complete overkill.Twould have been much better to either upgrade the entire Cork/Dublin railway or roads in and around Cork rather then build the entire M8 to over specified expensive designs.

It doesnt really matter that you have to take the M7 Limerick road from the M50 (which is the main economic artery of the country not the M8) to get to Cork, its how the spoke system works, what do you really want M1 to Cork coz we're like the second city? road numbering doesnt work like that.

Would it be so hard to have both Cork and Limerick on the fucking sign?

And the M8 doesn't just service people going between Cork and Dublin.

This is the whole point. They're two distinct population centres with their own hinterlands. Having the motorway is now throwing Cork City's reach well up into South Tipp.

[KolaKubes]

"Gombeenism" to complain about the NRA saying that roads to Dublin take priority over the Sarsfield and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts?

That is the attitude that has us in the most overly centralised country in Europe.


And by the way, I never suggested that we should have motorways from Cork to everywhere.

Just enhanced roadways and importantly, bypasses.

Just believe what you think you read rather than what was actually written, and continue with your namecalling.

Those of us in South Tipp are delighted with our lovely new roads.

If people choose to live in Ballincollig, that's there own fault.

[Actin The Sham]

Look i hate to break the cozy consensus here but having a motorway to Cork is complete overkill anyway, the new M8 sections are fabulous well engineered pieces of work but are replacing sections of road which have traffic numbers of less then 15K a day, in otherwords complete overkill.Twould have been much better to either upgrade the entire Cork/Dublin railway or roads in and around Cork rather then build the entire M8 to over specified expensive designs.

It doesnt really matter that you have to take the M7 Limerick road from the M50 (which is the main economic artery of the country not the M8) to get to Cork, its how the spoke system works, what do you really want M1 to Cork coz we're like the second city? road numbering doesnt work like that.

First the rail link. The entire Cork Dublin railway has been upgraded: continuous track, concrete sleepers and upgraded signalling system from Kent to Heuston.

That is why they are able to run a train every hour in both directions.

Now on to roads. Your reference to a "spoke system" is interesting. Many people would argue that building a "ladder system" from Belfast to Rosslare, and from Derry to Cork with rungs linking Galway via Athlone with Dublin, and Limerick via Kilkenny with the eastern route would have been far superior.


But to be honest, I neither care nor have any interest in replicating the mistakes that have led to Dublin being held up at international conferences as an example of bad planning. I just want to make sure that the unelected bureaucrats in Dublin are held responsible for the bad decisions they have made in the past.

By the way, tolling a peripheral route is absolute madness. Similar small cities to Dublin like Toulouse in France for instance have a free peripherique running around them and tolled inter city autoroutes. You have to come off the toll road to get onto the peripherique.

Here in Ireland, we can't even build a ringroad around a small city like Dublin without spending billions in buying out toll operators who were granted the licence in the first place by politicians and civil servants who were subsequently jailed for corruption.

Now that's Gombeenism, and its why the more "blue water" (as Kolakubes put it) we can put between ourselves and the unelected bureaucrats, chattering classes, and political elite in Dublin, the better. And it's not a cozy or to use the Irish spelling, cosy, consenus: it is just a slow gradual realisation that the current system of overcentralised corrupt government based almost exclusively in and for Dublin is no longer acceptable. We need to do things ourselves, we need more autonomy. There is a wind beginning to blow, people are beginning to realise that the unelected bureaucrats have no interest in what is best for Cork.

[juan pablo]

Hear hear.

Thats also why Dublin has so many problems,decentralis ation was meant to address part of the Capitals problems and all of the hassles of a big centralised low density sprawl and very few advantaged of a big city.Cork is probably the only other city in the Republic that has enough critical mass to attract investment in all areas and contribute to balanced regional development.

Decentralisation works for Cork so long as you're not from the city. Mitchelstown, Fermoy, Kanturk & Clon are all due to 'benefit' from the programme.

This is despite the NSS,which was unveiled a year before decentralisation identifying Cork & Mallow as primary and secondary hubs for development.

Joined up thinking? of course not but this happened in the early part of this century. Yet Cork still votes in the same people who clearly do not have the same ideas or visions expressed on this forum or elsewhere.

Docklands? stalled.

Key infrastructure projects like Midleton upgrade & N28? delayed.

Airport? fucked up.

All the sentiment expressed in this thread about anger at these kind of delays which are damaging to the local and national economy lead to ideas of autonomy/taxation/anger at 'Dublin Bureaucrats', but this is just the end result of the people of Cork voting For FF in their droves. You get what you vote for.

[Actin The Sham]

No i agree with you, the Roundabouts should have been a priority over the Dublin road. The Government decided different not the NRA(they dont decide which projects get built, they just build them). Yet people like Michael Mcgrath and Michael Martin said in 2007 that the SRR roundabouts were a priority, yet when they get into Government they just toe the line.

It ties back in with my point earlier in the thread, talk of autonomy, DEMs and new regional taxation policies for Cork are all well and good, but really all we need are better politicians then the ones you and i elected in 2004 and 2007. Its really that simple. We elect people like Martin time after time despite their uselessness as politicians and as Cork representatives. We're all gombeens if we're electing those fools.


That is factually incorrect. They are given a budget, and are then told to prioritise how the budget should be spent.

The fact that the government didn't give them enough money to complete all of the projects that are on their desk meant that they had to prioritise. They chose to prioritise "the interurban routes" (roads to Dublin) over important regional routes.

They are a quango of unelected bureaucrats appointed by politicians who we elect, and the politicians can then use them to pass the buck. Like the way they blame the EU for everything negative, but take credit for everything positive. We need more local decision making, and not a "National" Roads Authority that merely serves as a fig leaf for the back bench cannon fodder we send to Dail Eireann to vote for Dublin centred parties.

We now have a minister for the environment who represents a party with no tds from Cork telling us how we should clean up the biggest environmental mess on the island at Haulbowline. How can we hold him politically responsible?

It's time for change. It's time for a Cork regional authority with a directly elected mayor, and proper powers to collect taxes and fund itself locally.

[Actin The Sham]

Decentralisation works for Cork so long as you're not from the city. Mitchelstown, Fermoy, Kanturk & Clon are all due to 'benefit' from the programme.

This is despite the NSS,which was unveiled a year before decentralisation identifying Cork & Mallow as primary and secondary hubs for development.

Joined up thinking? of course not but this happened in the early part of this century. Yet Cork still votes in the same people who clearly do not have the same ideas or visions expressed on this forum or elsewhere.

Docklands? stalled.

Key infrastructure projects like Midleton upgrade & N28? delayed.

Airport? fucked up.

All the sentiment expressed in this thread about anger at these kind of delays which are damaging to the local and national economy lead to ideas of autonomy/taxation/anger at 'Dublin Bureaucrats', but this is just the end result of the people of Cork voting For FF in their droves. You get what you vote for.



I heard the chairman of CIE talk down to our city manager Joe Gavin during a discussion about the reorientation of Kent Station and the incorporation of a proper transport hub facing the city.

I heard him use the "f" word. I heard him mock the achievements of that self same city manager.

Why is an unelected bureaucrat from Dublin able to speak to our local unelected bureaucrat with such contempt?

I'll tell you why: because he can.

Take the assets of CIE in Cork off them, and transfer them into a local transit authority. Then allow that transit authority to redevelop Capwell and Horgans Quay and use the funding which would accrue from that to develop a quality local transport system.

We had it before: we had the Great Southern Railway, and the Cork Electric Tram Company, and they both worked very well, until the unelected bureaucrats in Dublin decided to merge them all together into a dublin centric CIE and then began to close down regional services.

Well, we want our autonomy back, and we are starting to demand it. The Lisbon debate has opened up lots of arguments about "democratic deficits," and "a say in what matters," let's hope that we can maintain the momentum.

[juan pablo]

First the rail link. The entire Cork Dublin railway has been upgraded: continuous track, concrete sleepers and upgraded signalling system from Kent to Heuston.

That is why they are able to run a train every hour in both directions.

Obviously we differ on our ideas of what upgrading a Railway line is. What you mentioned (double tracking, automated signalling & new sleepers) are bringing the line up to a basic standard.

Upgrading the Railway would mean rebuilding parts of the line around Limerick Junction & Tipperary to increase speed limits, a railway needs to be quicker then the roads it competes with, with the M8 upgrades coming online the appeal of the railway lessens.

It would mean potentially electrifying and quadding the railway at either end in Cork & Dublin to deliver improved local services.

Now on to roads. Your reference to a "spoke system" is interesting. Many people would argue that building a "ladder system" from Belfast to Rosslare, and from Derry to Cork with rungs linking Galway via Athlone with Dublin, and Limerick via Kilkenny with the eastern route would have been far superior.


But to be honest, I neither care nor have any interest in replicating the mistakes that have led to Dublin being held up at international conferences as an example of bad planning. I just want to make sure that the unelected bureaucrats in Dublin are held responsible for the bad decisions they have made in the past.

Im not trying to cause an argument but the way we number our roads is actually held up as good practice internationally, its a lot less confusing then the way the UK numbers its roads for instance, we really dont need to change what does the job just because of bruised egos.

By the way, tolling a peripheral route is absolute madness. Similar small cities to Dublin like Toulouse in France for instance have a free peripherique running around them and tolled inter city autoroutes. You have to come off the toll road to get onto the peripherique.

Agreed.

Here in Ireland, we can't even build a ringroad around a small city like Dublin without spending billions in buying out toll operators who were granted the licence in the first place by politicians and civil servants who were subsequently jailed for corruption.

Now that's Gombeenism, and its why the more "blue water" (as Kolakubes put it) we can put between ourselves and the unelected bureaucrats, chattering classes, and political elite in Dublin, the better. And it's not a cozy or to use the Irish spelling, cosy, consenus: it is just a slow gradual realisation that the current system of overcentralised corrupt government based almost exclusively in and for Dublin is no longer acceptable. We need to do things ourselves, we need more autonomy. There is a wind beginning to blow, people are beginning to realise that the unelected bureaucrats have no interest in what is best for Cork.

Agreed but the whole Dublin fixation is pointless it happens in Cork too.

Mahonpoint should never have been built where it is.

Neither should have Mount Oval.

At Dunkettle there are plans by Mr o Flynn to build 5000 units. Right next to the biggest bottleneck in the country after the M50.

TBH at local level in Cork we're like Dublin in the early 1990s, certain big name local developers are too cozy with the local councils & Pols, no point blaming Dublin for everything (which is the gombeen attitude im on about).

[jd26]

I agree that we're building too many motorways, but if anything the cutbacks should be in the number leaving Dublin. There's only really a need for three motorways leaving Dublin; instead, we see a motorway aping every existing national route.

You can combine the Cork and Waterford, Limerick and Galway, and Belfast and Derry routes. I'll put together a quick map to show what I mean.

In fact, the Cork-Limerick route has considerably higher traffic volumes than a number of routes out of Dublin, but again, it would be sufficient to have a spur off the Dublin road in North Cork, cutting the required distance down by half and saving loads of money.

But all that doesn't mean that Cork isn't getting screwed. Have a look at Transport 21. More money to be spent on advertising than on the bus services for Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford combined! Remember those lovely buses Bus Eireann brought to Cork before the last election? They're all operating commuter routes out of Dublin :rolleyes:

I've stated previously in this thread that I don't think the problem is unique to Cork. Each of the regional cities is being shafted. At a time when any sensible analysis of Metro North fails a CBA, they can't even manage to get the running of the bus service right outside the capital.

[KolaKubes]

I heard the chairman of CIE talk down to our city manager Joe Gavin during a discussion about the reorientation of Kent Station and the incorporation of a proper transport hub facing the city.

I heard him use the "f" word. I heard him mock the achievements of that self same city manager.

Why is an unelected bureaucrat from Dublin able to speak to our local unelected bureaucrat with such contempt?

I'll tell you why: because he can.

Take the assets of CIE in Cork off them, and transfer them into a local transit authority. Then allow that transit authority to redevelop Capwell and Horgans Quay and use the funding which would accrue from that to develop a quality local transport system.

We had it before: we had the Great Southern Railway, and the Cork Electric Tram Company, and they both worked very well, until the unelected bureaucrats in Dublin decided to merge them all together into a dublin centric CIE and then began to close down regional services.

Well, we want our autonomy back, and we are starting to demand it. The Lisbon debate has opened up lots of arguments about "democratic deficits," and "a say in what matters," let's hope that we can maintain the momentum.

I think the fact that so many Cork graduates have to go to Dublin for work speaks volumes for why Cork needs to be allowed do its own thing.

There is no need for it - Cork provides plenty work for people in equally technical professions.

[juan pablo]

That is factually incorrect. They are given a budget, and are then told to prioritise how the budget should be spent.

The fact that the government didn't give them enough money to complete all of the projects that are on their desk meant that they had to prioritise. They chose to prioritise "the interurban routes" (roads to Dublin) over important regional routes.


The government funds them on a project by project basis, the Government wanted the interurbans completed by 2010 without increasing spending already committed.

The NRA cut local projects everywhere to prioritise the interurbans.

But the NRA were never going to build all the projects they are committed to anyway, there are 150 seperate projects the NRA are committed to working on, thats complete overkill.

[Actin The Sham]

At Dunkettle there are plans by Mr o Flynn to build 5000 units. Right next to the biggest bottleneck in the country after the M50.




Plans which have been rejected by local planners because the area road infrastructure is inadequate.


(And yes, we do differ about railway upgrading.)

[Barry Scott]

Fuck this Cork regional authority shit, whats needed is worker's soviets, each with a couple thousand members.

[juan pablo]

We had it before: we had the Great Southern Railway, and the Cork Electric Tram Company, and they both worked very well, until the unelected bureaucrats in Dublin decided to merge them all together into a dublin centric CIE and then began to close down regional services.



Utterly pointless mentioning this in a 21st century context. They were shut down and merged because they werent working well, not because of anti cork bias but because of simple economics.

Old unreliable, expensive to run and little used railways are a drain on any economy, nevermind a small one like Ireland in the early & mid 20th century.

The regional services closed down were justifiably shut down, the problem was a lot of the alignments were not preserved.

[juan pablo]

Plans which have been rejected by local planners because the area road infrastructure is inadequate.


(And yes, we do differ about railway upgrading.)

he'll be back im sure with a new proposal that takes into accounts planners concerns maybe a reduction in numbers or a modest gesture, but if he wants to build a hude development there im sure he'll get his way eventually. the problem with Dunkettle now is that there should be an embargo on any development there until the plans for the exchanges upgrade, along with the proposed P&R & any railway plans are complete.

[Actin The Sham]

Utterly pointless mentioning this in a 21st century context. They were shut down and merged because they werent working well, not because of anti cork bias but because of simple economics.

Old unreliable, expensive to run and little used railways are a drain on any economy, nevermind a small one like Ireland in the early & mid 20th century.

The regional services closed down were justifiably shut down, the problem was a lot of the alignments were not preserved.

Old. Unreliable. Expensive to run. Little used.

All as a direct result of a failure by central government to invest in them.

But I never mentioned an "anti- Cork bias," that is something that you have decided to assume exists. I don't care if it does or it doesn't, I have no interest in Dublin, I just want more autonomy, because the current situation is unsustainable.

Have directly elected local reps., and then send a few tds to dublin. As media outlets proliferate, and nation states (which are a comparatively recent phenomenon) weaken, then local communities will become stronger and demand more democracy.

Ireland as a political entity has existed for only 88 years, and already has outlived it's usefulness. It's time to ask fundamental questions.

[Arcadia]

Utterly pointless mentioning this in a 21st century context. They were shut down and merged because they werent working well, not because of anti cork bias but because of simple economics.

Old unreliable, expensive to run and little used railways are a drain on any economy, nevermind a small one like Ireland in the early & mid 20th century.

The regional services closed down were justifiably shut down, the problem was a lot of the alignments were not preserved.


Closed down because of the car and bus proliferation and were very popular BTW.

The usual Irish tunnel vision short term economical solution ?It would have been cheaper to keep them runing in the first place.

How much did Luas cost now ?

How much would a system cost for Cork ?

The greens are up for it in theory on paper (recycled) like all their great theories.

[juan pablo]

I agree that we're building too many motorways, but if anything the cutbacks should be in the number leaving Dublin. There's only really a need for three motorways leaving Dublin; instead, we see a motorway aping every existing national route.

You can combine the Cork and Waterford, Limerick and Galway, and Belfast and Derry routes. I'll put together a quick map to show what I mean.

In fact, the Cork-Limerick route has considerably higher traffic volumes than a number of routes out of Dublin, but again, it would be sufficient to have a spur off the Dublin road in North Cork, cutting the required distance down by half and saving loads of money.

But all that doesn't mean that Cork isn't getting screwed. Have a look at Transport 21. More money to be spent on advertising than on the bus services for Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford combined! Remember those lovely buses Bus Eireann brought to Cork before the last election? They're all operating commuter routes out of Dublin :rolleyes:

I've stated previously in this thread that I don't think the problem is unique to Cork. Each of the regional cities is being shafted. At a time when any sensible analysis of Metro North fails a CBA, they can't even manage to get the running of the bus service right outside the capital.

Yep ive seen variants of that map do the rounds online for aquite a while alright. People are beginning to see now alright that the Irish apporach to Motorway building was overkill, but of course its about a decade too late for anything to be done on that regards.

The CIE group do seem to exist in a state of paralysis outside of the GDA. But again thats we the peoples fault.

The Midleton line has been delayed repeatedly, there should be uproar over the fact its taken 5 years from when this project was formally announced to it opening, and on that im being optimistic, if it isnt opened until 2010 because of late works/'testing'/HR issues i wont be surprised.

5 years to rebuild less then 15km of single track railway and a couple of stations.

Lets not even ask at what stage the plans to open up new stations on the Mallow line, which were announced at the same time as Midleton, are at.

[juan pablo]

Old. Unreliable. Expensive to run. Little used.

All as a direct result of a failure by central government to invest in them.

Well when lines like the West Cork Railway and Youghal lines closed there was no need to invest in them. They were decrepit single track lines with low passenger numbers and unreliable old trains. Their journey times were no competition to the emergence of the motor car. The 1950s was a bleak time in Ireland, these lines were shut down because there was no economic case to keep these lines open nevermind investing capital in upgrading them(which of course the country couldnt afford anyway).

But I never mentioned an "anti- Cork bias," that is something that you have decided to assume exists. I don't care if it does or it doesn't, I have no interest in Dublin, I just want more autonomy, because the current situation is unsustainable.

Have directly elected local reps., and then send a few tds to dublin. As media outlets proliferate, and nation states (which are a comparatively recent phenomenon) weaken, then local communities will become stronger and demand more democracy.

Ireland as a political entity has existed for only 88 years, and already has outlived it's usefulness. It's time to ask fundamental questions.

Fair enough at least you've nailed your colours to the mast.

[jd26]

Planning permission for Kilbarry was granted at the end of February, so at least there is some evidence of plans being made there.

As far as I can see, there has been no planning application for a station in Blarney yet.

In the meantime, someone might want to look at why the cost of commuting from Mallow to Cork is so expensive compared to similar distances out of Dublin.

[Actin The Sham]

there should be an embargo on any development there until the plans for the exchanges upgrade, along with the proposed P&R & any railway plans are complete.

There is.

That is why the O'Flynn development got shot down. "The adjoining road infrastruture is inadequate and will deliver an excessive volume of traffic onto the Dunkettle Interchange." Also why Dunnes got rejected for their plan to build a shopping centre at the Northern end of the Dunkettkle Interchange to compete with Mahon. And also one of the reasons why they didn't get permission to build one in Little Island either.

There was always going to be a town centre in Mahon, from way back in the early 1980s.

What wasn't anticipated was the backlog of traffic that would build up at the Bandon Road and Sarsfield Road Roundabouts because the local planners had assumed that there would be flyovers at these roundabouts. This would have eased the flow of traffic along the entire south ring rather than delivering large bunches of traffic in fits and starts to the tunnel which is what happens now depending on the traffic lights at Sarsfield and Bishopstown roundabouts.

The plans to upgrade the interchange are progressing, and the council believes it can do this at minimum cost, because it kept land clear at the northern end. This is earmarked to be used to build a graded sliproad from the N8 to the N25 eastbound without having to stop at the traffic lights at the interchange. It is hoped that this could alleviate a lot of the congestion on the Northern Side, and they are also looking at realigning it so that citybound traffic from the N8 could also avoid the interchange.

The traffic volumes through the tunnel alone were 40,000 vehicles per day back in 2005.

[juan pablo]

Closed down because of the car and bus proliferation and were very popular BTW.

The usual Irish tunnel vision short term economical solution ?It would have been cheaper to keep them runing in the first place.

How much did Luas cost now ?

How much would a system cost for Cork ?

The greens are up for it in theory on paper (recycled) like all their great theories.

The railways that were closed throughout the 20th century would have bankrupted the country to keep open.

Railways are hugely expensive to build and run. the idea is the expense in building and maintaining will be beneficial so long as large numbers of people use them.

In Ireland since independence through to the 1960s there were plenty of lines running little used but costing a fortune to operate.

Its not just 'Irish Tunnel vision' or short term thinking, in the UK 1000s of miles of Railways were shutdown throughout the 20th Century. Mainly rural & branch lines which were, like Ireland, little used and expensive to maintain.

A LUAS for Cork is a long way off, and tbh any money spent on it would be better off investing the buses until such a time comes that the densities are there to justify a Light rail line.

My trainspotter senses predict a southside based alignment running a little something like this:

Ballincollig(P&R)-Bishopstown/Wilton-UCC-City Centre-Kent-Docklands-South City-Douglas-Mahon-MP P&R

[juan pablo]

There is.

Hooray!

That is why the O'Flynn development got shot down. "The adjoining road infrastruture is inadequate and will deliver an excessive volume of traffic onto the Dunkettle Interchange." Also why Dunnes got rejected for their plan to build a shopping centre at the Northern end of the Dunkettkle Interchange to compete with Mahon. And also one of the reasons why they didn't get permission to build one in Little Island either.

I was under the impression that the O Flynn development was denied on the basis that the back roads around there were inadequate? my fear being in exchange for promises of upgrades to these roads permission would be granted?

There was always going to be a town centre in Mahon, from way back in the early 1980s.

What wasn't anticipated was the backlog of traffic that would build up at the Bandon Road and Sarsfield Road Roundabouts because the local planners had assumed that there would be flyovers at these roundabouts. This would have eased the flow of traffic along the entire south ring rather than delivering large bunches of traffic in fits and starts to the tunnel which is what happens now depending on the traffic lights at Sarsfield and Bishopstown roundabouts.

And what a shit town centre it turned out to be, construction on MP didnt begin until long after most of the SRR was built. How on earth did same local planners not guess that as soon as MP opened, with two roundabouts up the road and another one at the otherside of the tunnel that congestion will increase massively year on year. Im going to guess they were told not to consider it?

The plans to upgrade the interchange are progressing, and the council believes it can do this at minimum cost, because it kept land clear at the northern end. This is earmarked to be used to build a graded sliproad from the N8 to the N25 eastbound without having to stop at the traffic lights at the interchange. It is hoped that this could alleviate a lot of the congestion on the Northern Side, and they are also looking at realigning it so that citybound traffic from the N8 could also avoid the interchange.

The traffic volumes through the tunnel alone were 40,000 vehicles per day back in 2005.

Am i not mistaken in thinking though some of that land is also earmarked by IR for their new station & P&R. The key to the Dunkettle interchange is keeping N8 & N25 traffic freeflowing, you seem to have access to the info? what are the heads saying about it?

[Actin The Sham]

Hooray!



I was under the impression that the O Flynn development was denied on the basis that the back roads around there were inadequate? my fear being in exchange for promises of upgrades to these roads permission would be granted?



And what a shit town centre it turned out to be, construction on MP didnt begin until long after most of the SRR was built. How on earth did same local planners not guess that as soon as MP opened, with two roundabouts up the road and another one at the otherside of the tunnel that congestion will increase massively year on year. Im going to guess they were told not to consider it?



Am i not mistaken in thinking though some of that land is also earmarked by IR for their new station & P&R. The key to the Dunkettle interchange is keeping N8 & N25 traffic freeflowing, you seem to have access to the info? what are the heads saying about it?

The P&R is earmarked for the North Esk Freight Yards. The location of the station is "yet to be determined," but the piece of land I am talking about for the upgrade to the junction is on the left of the N8 as you approach the interchange. North Esk is further East. There is talk of the station being at North Esk as well, but there is pressure for it to be to the west of the Dunkettle Interchange if possible (near it's original location) in order to make it easier for pedestrian access to Glanmire Village. I don't know how that would work though, with the Dunkettle Roundabout in the way, and the old station now underneath the Dunkettle Interchange.

By the way, I don't mean you, but lots of people get mixed up between the Dunkettle Roundabout which is at the end of the Tivoli Dual Carriageway, and the Dunkettle Interchange which is further east and enables the N8 and N25 to enter and exit the tunnel.

[Actin The Sham]

I have a feeling that the Midleton to Cork railway will reopen without a station at Dunkettle, and that that station will be quietly shelved.

I hope i'm wrong.

[jd26]

I'd say you're right that it won't open at the same time as the Midleton line, but it will probably get built. Planning permission was applied for by Irish Rail, but the NRA threw in an objection (nice co-ordinated government policy there :rolleyes:).

The other planned stations - Monard, Tivoli and Ballynoe - I wouldn't be so sure about. I can see them just disappearing. Monard my get built if the construction sector picks up and they can get enough developer levies.

[hans aus dtschl]

I know a guy who knows a guy (etc) who was down on the side road ye're talking about; east of dunkettle interchange, north of N8 (Ibis hotel, basically).

Planning notices there are for a P&R for Irish Rail, and what seems to be a station to the NORTH EAST of the interchange. Which eats a lot of room ye're suggesting for a N25->N8 slip road. I've not seen the plans, but it looks like what you guys were saying (push the P&R west; this obviously makes sense) isn't quite whats going to happen. Furthermore the guy who knows the guy saw no planning for the (badly needed) slip roads, though they could well be there somewhere. And more interestingly, there's an existing slip road really near that junction (from north esk freight, etc) and private residences (around five or so). All of that area is, in short, a real mess.

The overall problem at that end of things is that three main roads are feeding into two tunnel lanes. The two exiting tunnel lanes suffer from the subsequent congestion, as much of it heads east. I honestly cant think of a cheap solution for that. Every solution I imagine requires a flyover. Slip roads there wont change a whole pile, from what I see.

Just a few observations, but do carry on. Also, at least they actually ARE working on the midleton line now.

[Actin The Sham]

10,000 babies still awaiting TB vaccine in Cork

From irishtimes.com11:27T uesday, 26th August, 2008

Fine Gael has called on the Minister for Health Mary Harney and the Health Service Executive (HSE) to take immediate action to reduce waiting times for the BCG vaccine in Cork.


The party claims that there are still 10,000 babies waiting to receive the vaccine in the county.

Fine Gael TD for Cork South Central Deidre Clune said today parents are being forced to bring their children to neighbouring counties in order to get the BCG vaccine and she warned of the dangers posed by Tuberculosis (TB).

"I have met parents who have brought their babies to counties like Waterford and Kerry to receive the vaccine. The fact that babies in Cork are denied a vital vaccine solely on the basis of the county in which they were born
is totally unacceptable," said Ms Clune.

Earlier this year, Fine Gael accussed the Minister for Health of failing to recognise the health risks posed by TB after it emerged that many newborn babies and toddlers were awaiting vaccination in Cork.

An outbreak of TB in two Cork creches last year resulted in 18 children and three adults being diagnosed with the potentially fatal disease.

Earlier this year it was announced that a full tuberculosis service was to resume in Cork with the opening of a new laboratory at Cork University Hospital (CUH). Last year, the existing TB laboratory, which was housed in a temporary prefab, was forced to close due to the poor standard of its facilities.

“The BCG vaccine is administered to newborn babies to prevent TB and a commitment was given that all newborn babies in Cork would have access to the vaccine by October 2007. Despite this promise, almost a year
later Cork’s newborn babies do not have access to the vaccine and 10,000 Cork babies are now on a waiting list for the TB vaccine," said Ms Clune.

"Despite this the Government and the HSE continue to refuse to accept that a serious problem exists because of their mismanagement and refuse to make resolving this a priority," she added.

Fine Gael said it will be raising the vaccine issue directly with the Minister for Health when the Dáil resumes
next month.



****


Meanwhile, the Green Party go on about reducing speed limits by 20 kph.


Ho-hum....


:rolleyes:

[RizzlaRebel]

Moved to the airport thread!

[Actin The Sham]

Our councillors don't give a shite either.

I don't know about city council attendance records, but the County Councillor attendance records at Council Meetings for areas near the city is as follows:


John Collins (Carrigaline) FF 100%

Seamus McGrath (Carrigaline) FF 92%

Deirdre Forde (Douglas) FF 89%

Derry Canty (Ballincollig) FG 89%

Mark O' Keeffe (Ballincollig) FF 83%

Paul Desmond (Carrigaline) Labour 77%

John Gilroy (Glanmire) Labour 72%

And for comparison:

Deremot Sheehan (Goleen) FG 97%


***

So obviously, the local representative for Glanmire couldn't be arsed going out the road to County Hall to meet his fellow councillors, yet his party colleague from Carrigaline can travel a further distance to go to more meetings then he does. Also, some guy from Goleen can come all the way up and go to nine out of ten meetings in County Hall, yet this guy John Gilroy couldn't be arsed going to three out of every ten meetings.

No wonder Glanmire is such a dump. I wonder when they will bring out the attendance records for the City Council?


These losers who don't bother going to meetings should be told that only going to 7 out of 10 meetings isn't good enough. If I only went to work for 3.5 days a week, (7 out of 10 days) I wouldn't last long.


I suppose we get the politicians we deserve.
Here's a pic of Gilroy http://www.corkcoco.ie/graphics/MCC_John_Gilroy.jpg from the Cork County Council website, taken on one of his rare visits to County Hall.


:grin:

[jd26]

My favourite part from the Examiner article this morning was this

The second-lowest attendance record, at 22%, was that of Clonakilty-based Cllr Christopher O’Sullivan.

The Independent, who was co-opted onto the council to replace his father, Christy, was unavailable for comment yesterday.

He was co-opted in July 2007, after his father won a FF seat in the Dáil.

It is understood that he has been abroad for a considerable period of time, although did attend a council meeting last July.

Now, I can forgive yer wan who has the lowest attendance considering she's a new mother, but you'd think being in the country might be a qualification for councillor!

I'd caution about reading too much into attendance records though, especially in the city councils. Some councillors are notorious for turning up, signing to get their expenses and then pissing off to do the funeral circuit.

At least if someone is down as having attended from Bantry, you can be pretty certain they were there. But for city councillors, it would be so easy to pop in for 10 minutes.

[Arcadia]

Exchequer should fund project at Cork docks, says report

THE EXCHEQUER should fund hundreds of millions of euro worth of infrastructure, including bridges and roads, to kickstart the development of Cork docklands, according to an influential report.

In addition, the Government should heed long-standing demands from Cork that major tax incentives to back the project should be included in this year's budget. Local politicians, Cork City Council, developers and others had all hoped for major concessions last year, but they failed to materialise. In all, €615 million will have to be spent up to 2020 on three bridges, three roads, public transport, water, schools etc, according to the Cork Docklands Forum.

Chaired by former UCC president Prof Gerry Wrixon, the group set up by the Government late last year includes local representatives but, crucially, was dominated by departmental officials.

The potential of the docklands project - the biggest proposal since the International Financial Services Centre in Dublin 20 years ago - is hugely significant, the document says.

It acknowledges that the Government will face significant costs in the face of the economic downturn and that this will create "pressure" on the exchequer.

However, it says the project's "potential, especially in the light of an economic downturn, out-weighs the short-term costs of providing such infrastructure".

Development of the 400-acre site in Cork city has so far been stymied as developers have baulked at paying the cost of basic infrastructure. Developers, city council officials and others will meet Minister for the Environment John Gormley today.

The Wrixon report has recommended that a new body should be set up to oversee the 20-year development of the area but says planning control should remain with Cork City Council, following strong lobbying by city manager Joe Gavin. The Government, it adds, should "adopt an imaginative and creative approach" to getting funding for the development and establishing targeted tax incentives.

Much of the docklands is currently unusable because it has been occupied for decades by oil tanks and other high-risk operations.

These lands, known as Seveso sites, are currently owned by Topaz Energy, the National Oil Reserve Agency and Gouldings Fertilisers.

The expert group says that offering grants to these companies to move operations would not breach EU state aid rules.

Three bridges should be built to improve access, including the Eastern Gateway Bridge to ease movement from the east, although an exact location for it is not given in the report.

Another bridge should be built at Water Street on the approach into the city centre, while the use of a third at Mill Road would be dominated in time by a high-quality public transport system.

The Eastern Gateway Bridge and the one at Water Street would both be able to open up to allow ships to travel upriver to dock at the island where the two channels of the Lee meet.

Two-thirds of the €600 million infrastructure budget would have to be spent over the next five years. "This frontloading of infrastructure expenditure is essential," the report says. "The existing infrastructure, by and large, is simply not capable of supporting the kind of intensive, mixed-use development envisaged."

© 2008 The Irish Times

[leesider]

Montpellier in France is a prime example of how to run a regional city. It is clean, well planned, has an excellent tram (the same type as the hornby luas thing in Dublin, except that it is joined up), and has a thriving high tech industrial base which is served by the local university.

The main difference between it and Cork is that it doesn't have to go to Paris looking for funding for every bus shelter. Cork unfortunately has to go to Dublin for every penny, only to be told that the Sarsfield Road and Bishopstown Court Roundabouts are not "priorities."


We need a directly elected mayor, and properly funded autonomous city governments.

Only a few short weeks ago, we had everyone mouthing off about a "democratic deficit," and "let the people have their say," in relation to the Lisbon treaty referendum.


But now we are happy to lie down under the weight of Europes most overly centralised capital, Dublin, and it's bloated overweight unelected bureaucracy which makes decisions relating to Cork through the perspective of what is best for Dublin.

It's time for change.

Have we the balls to do it?

Have we the balls to form a Cork Peoples Party? A Southern League?

Or do we want to be like Bernard Allen, Dan Boyle, Micheal Martin, and all the rest and try to progress up through the ranks of Dublin based parties by being nice boys and defending the indefensible in order to stay on the right side of our Dublin based head offices?

there was a lot of talk about a Cork People's Party a while back, don't know if it was on this thread or not, but was just wondering did anything actually get moving??

[the conductor]

signs are not good for our dear old city... the Inner City is getting pretty run down looking again after a slight improvement during the boom years...

Have a good look around the Barrack Street Area, im sad to say its slipping back to looking like the depressed deprived inner city skid row it used to be when i was growing up,.... and thats not too long ago either!!!

Cork will always be neglected by the government in Dublin, a sad reality we like all regional cities all over Europe have to contend with....

we have massive potential, i often wonder would the Brits have developed the City better if we hadnt kicked them out...??

[bosco]

http://corkpolitics.ie/wp/?p=1792

Gormley says "decisions [must be] deferred" in relation to the funding for the Eastern Gateway bridge. We're getting royally screwed again. Do people not realise that this is the type of capital spending that will help stimulate activity in the economy and get things going again?

What have Micheál Martin, Batt O'Keefe, Noel O'Flynn or any of them done to press for this funding? Not a peep out of them as far as I can see. Cork has suffered so much in recent years for want of decent representation at national level.

While I'm moaning, take transport for example. Transport 21 promised so much to the country, yet even before they quietly pulled the plug on half the projects, there was almost no investment in it for Cork. Did our representatives push for greater investment in our city and county? Did they voice the people's concerns? Hah!

Out of transport 21 we get:
-Roads: a tolled motorway to (from) the capital (major road projects 'postponed': Ringaskiddy, Macroom bypass, North ring road, Limerick rd upgrade)
-Air: an airport carrying crippling debt, run by it's bigger competitor in the capital
-Rail: a shoddy old train station (the major improvements and station realignment were abandoned) with fancy new trains (that carry less passengers) to (from) the capital every hour for the price of 2 return flights (in the same time that the same journey took 30 years ago). Reopening of an old train line to Midleton (nearly 3 years behind schedule), park & rides delayed by bickering between groups under the remit of dept of transport, Blarney, Kilbarry, Monard stations abandoned, train schedule a mess weeks before trains due to start running.
-Waterways - private company endeavours to set up river ferry service, private groups try to reinstate Swansea ferry route. Government sits on its hands.
Efforts at promoting cycling summed up as thus: Paint a new line in the existing hard shoulder on a road very few people ever cycle, paint some bicycle symbols, proudly announce 5kms of new cycle paths "to encourage sustainable transport in the city". Repeat as required until desired kms for press release are reached.
Bus routes and fleet being cut, city centre parking never more expensive, all the while we're meant to embrace public transport and leave the cars at home?
I'm going to have to stop before I burst a vein like an old man.

[Cliff Barnes]

Monday, July 6, 2009

Boyle says funding for Cork docks unchanged
Green Party figure in Cork has insisted that the funding situation with regard to the development of the city’s docklands remains unchanged.

Senator Dan Boyle was reacting to angry comments from political and business circles in the city at the weekend following reports that his party leader, Minister for the Environment John Gormley, had announced the deferral of vital funds for the project.

Responding to a question regarding the implementation of the report of the Cork Docklands Development Forum, Mr Gormley had said the Government would have to defer funding decisions relating to the Eastern Gateway Bridge “having regard to the prevailing budgetary constraints”.

City council and local business quickly voiced their frustrations, insisting the €2.3 million needed to begin work on the €80 million Eastern Gateway Bridge was essential funding vital to the timetable of the entire project.

Mr Gormley and the Government were accused of being short-sighted and neglecting the needs of the second city.

However, Mr Boyle insisted the hostile reaction was not warranted, and said that no additional obstacles to funding had been put in place.

“There was never going to be money available in 2009. We are looking at 2010 at the earliest, and saying that is reiterating the situation rather than saying something new,” he said.

This article appears in the print edition of the Irish Times

Cheque is in the post then Dan ?


Utter face saving waffle from Dan.

Next they will be promoting a carbon tax or something equally stupid ?

[bosco]

Monday, July 6, 2009

Boyle says funding for Cork docks unchanged
Green Party figure in Cork has insisted that the funding situation with regard to the development of the city’s docklands remains unchanged.

...

However, Mr Boyle insisted the hostile reaction was not warranted, and said that no additional obstacles to funding had been put in place.



Oh dear. For FUCKS sake! I suppose no additional obstacles to me winning the lotto have been put in place either Dan? Nice one!

So, the people decrie an announcement that funding is delayed, postponed, put on the long finger (whichever you wish). Response is to proudly proclaim "don't worry, we haven't done anything extra to delay it" so there's no need for all this furore.

To my eyes, it seems like Gormley is trying to soften the blow and Boyle is trying to soften Gormley's announcement. This is absurd. I suppose they just hope that if it's deferred often enough people will forget about it. It's easier to deflect criticism when you don't cancel or abandon projects but 'defer' them indefinitely. Same for roads funding, train station, airport independence etc.

[Actin The Sham]

The Green Party is now irrelevant in Cork. It is a party for and run by the people of South Dublin.

We should never forget that.

[Cliff Barnes]

Abolish the pointless talking shop that is the Seanad and build the bridge which could create jobs in the Docklands.

At least we would have something to show for our money.

Up for that Dan ?

[quincytwo]

Lokks like the development of the Irish Rail site on the quays is gone belly up as well !

[jd26]

I thought this was interesting

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1005/1224280402941.html

2 LUAS stops and one rail station have been built in Dublin, but are not being opened because the expected housing and access roads are not in place.

In the meantime, Kilbarry station never got built in Cork, despite housing, retail and access all being there already.

[rebs23]

Yet another example of the massive lobbying that is taking place to ensure that Dublin gets the lion share of infrastructural development in todays Irish Times;

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1005/1224280400700.html

Can anyone tell me what if any projects in Cork are going ahead? N28? Sarsfield and Bandon Rd flyovers? M20? North Ring Road? Docklands Bridge?
None of the above mentioned in the so called National Development Plan.
And why is there such a conflict in public policy stalling private development in the city centre (O'Callaghan's Hospital), Dunkettle, Mahon and the relocation of the Port. One state funded agency objecting to anothers plans. Its fing criminal.

[johnmcork]

Yet another example of the massive lobbying that is taking place to ensure that Dublin gets the lion share of infrastructural development in todays Irish Times;

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1005/1224280400700.html

Can anyone tell me what if any projects in Cork are going ahead? N28? Sarsfield and Bandon Rd flyovers? M20? North Ring Road? Docklands Bridge?
None of the above mentioned in the so called National Development Plan.
And why is there such a conflict in public policy stalling private development in the city centre (O'Callaghan's Hospital), Dunkettle, Mahon and the relocation of the Port. One state funded agency objecting to anothers plans. Its fing criminal.

*shudder*

''they can't all have a university or an international airport''

ffs,

a few hospitable beds and a couple of flyovers would help awfully thanks.

[ho chi feen]

Everytime I take a flight from Cork airport, the €39 taxes and charges and the unused platforms to the planes make me want to puke... how any Cork person can vote FF is beyond me.