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Lamps
17-03-2008, 10:32 AM
WHEN 20-year-old Colin Murphy played rugby for Belvedere College . . . today facing St Mary's College in the Leinster Schools Senior Cup final . . . he claims supplement use was the norm.

"It was not unusual for students to be taking shakes and other supplements after training. Maxi Muscle Cyclone is quite popular because of the advertising, " he said.

Murphy described how a fellow student missed training because of illness and tried to bulk up quickly with creatine.

"He became very bloated, which can happen when it's not correctly taken. He probably had overloaded on the amount taken. I tried to look into it and take the stuff that was safe. Most people take stuff without second guessing it, or checking up. If they hear that people are using it, then it's usually good enough for them."

The Sunday Tribune spoke with several former rugby schools players, some from different rugby provinces, most of them now playing at under-20 college level. Many students taking supplements admit to being unconcerned about potential side-effects.

Although mild side-effects are common, some share rumours of more serious side-effects, such as severe headaches and heart palpitations, among other rugby playing students.

Mark Hurst (20) a former schools rugby player from Enniskillen, said Maxi Muscle Cyclone is probably the most common supplement in schools rugby.

"I have used it [Maxi Muscle Cyclone] sparingly for a month. It didn't really have any great effect on me and it was widely used within the school. I would say that Maxi Muscle Cyclone is used by at least 80% of rugby students who are taking supplements.

The advertising on products like Maxi Muscle Cyclone is very strong and appears in a lot of popular health magazines so I don't think potential side-effects are something students worry about."

One current schools rugby player who spoke to the Sunday Tribune asked to be identified only by his first name, Stephen. He says he began to experience heart problems while using a combination of Maxi Muscle Cyclone and another product called BSN Cell Mass. Under advice from his doctor he stopped using both products.

When questioned by the Sunday Tribune about possible long-term effects of such products he maintained it was "necessary" among his peers to bulk up. He now uses only pure protein supplements to increase muscle mass.

James Kelly was playing rugby for a Munster school when he began to experience discomfort while using Maxi Muscle Thermobol, a popular slimming product containing high levels of vitamin B12 which is not authorised for sale without prescription by the Irish Medicines Board.

"It started to speed up my heart and I became a bit concerned about this. Sometimes I had a tightening in my chest which was a bit uncomfortable. I started to realise that this probably wasn't normal and I stopped using it."

Kelly is acutely aware of the pressure within the schools rugby system. "There can be great pressure on players within schools rugby. The level of training is like that of a professional athlete and there can be a lot of pressure on schools for success so the desire is there on the part of students to get an extra edge which a supplement can offer. Rugby has become a professional game and this is something which rival sports like the GAA don't offer."

Dara Kernan (21) who has played rugby for 13 years, began to experience heart palpitations with a popular sports supplement, BSN Nitrix.

"This supplement [Nitrix] is the only supplement I've experienced any problems with, and it was only for a short while when I started taking it. I started getting heart palpitations and very short spells of dizziness to the point where I was going to almost black out.

"The palpitations were very short but were quite intense.

It did say on the bottle that some side-effects might happen."

Dara also became concerned about the number of capsules the product recommended he should take.

"I became concerned about the dosage. It says that for my body weight I should take four tablets three times a day, but after getting heart palpitations, there was no way I was going to start putting 12 tablets into my body."

Death of Jamie Quinn Jamie Quinn, like most men in their early 20s, led an active sporting life; he played soccer and GAA and was a coach at underage soccer level. He was about to start playing golf the day after he died.

On 2 October 2004, while out enjoying himself with friends at a nightclub in his local town of Edenderry, Co Offaly, Quinn collapsed on the dance floor and died after attempts to revive him failed.

The coroner's inquest last November revealed Quinn died due to asphyxia, which resulted from a combination of moderate to high alcohol levels, steroids and creatine. The level of alcohol was not considered unusual for a young man of his age.

Quinn had been using a muscle-building creatine product called Cell-Tech. His mother remembers Quinn started to feel unwell when he began taking it.

"He initially thought he had diabetes and he spoke to some people about this, but he seemed fine again a while after this. Using supplements was just something new that he had started to get into, just like other sports."

Traces of anabolic steroids were found in the postmortem analysis, giving rise to worrying concerns given what the Sunday Tribune found to be contained in supplements sold in many shops in Ireland.

Medical concerns Dr Martin Henman of the school of pharmacy at Trinity College Dublin said of the product Maxi Muscle Cyclone, which contains beta-ecdysterone, that it should be on sale by prescription only.

"Beta-ecdysterone was labelled an anabolic steroid by the Irish Medicines Board, " he said. He also said the level of vitamin B12 in Maxi Muscle Thermobol meant it should also be available only with a prescription.

Dr Conor O'Brien, former chairperson of the Irish-Anti Doping Committee and former committee member of the World Anti-doping Agency, said legislation was called for.

"We need a structure and legislation and it's a very grey area. It is now a concern with young men dropping dead as a result of sudden cardiac arrest, showing that this could be also caused by contaminated supplements as anabolic androgenic steroids which can cause direct cardiac damage. Heart muscle hypertrophy, elevation in blood pressure and interference with the normal rhythm and conductivity of the heart have been reported."

O'Brien began lecturing to schools on the issue as long as 10 years ago, but admits the problem is now growing, "While supplements may indeed improve your performance in sport, you may well be taking something that will cause long-term damage to your health, " he said.

The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) is also concerned at the use of supplements in rugby-playing schools, and recently issued guidelines to schools advising against the use of supplements such as creatine.

A Croke Park spokesperson yesterday said: "The GAA would not not encourage the use of creatine-like supplements for its players."

Speaking to the Sunday Tribune earlier this year, Brendan Buckley of the Irish Sports Council said: "There are one or two schools who have adopted good preventative policies, but these schools generally aren't the ones with the winning teams. . . I would be extremely concerned that a blind eye is being turned to this problem by the schools when in fact it is their duty to show leadership."

The facts Substances such as ephedra, once widely used in slimming products, were banned some years ago due to health concerns. This brought about a move within the billion-dollar supplements industry to replicate ephedra-like ingredients which many believe may be just as harmful.

Many of them are now using bitter orange, an ingredient common in weightloss supplements that are often marketed as 'ephedra free'. This substance is contained in concentrated form in Maxi Muscle Thermobol.

Bitter orange is a stimulant derived from a citrus fruit which contains related chemicals that, like ephedra, may raise blood pressure and disturb heart rhythms. Ephedra's active ingredient is ephedrine, while the active ingredient in bitter orange is synephrine;

both act as adrenaline-like stimulants that affect the heart and nervous system.

While synephrine is not included on the World Antidoping Agency's list of prohibited substances, which came into effect in January of this year, a spokeswoman for the Food and Drugs Administration in the US has previously said synephrine is associated with seven deaths and 85 adverse reactions.

The Sunday Tribune was unable to contact Maximuscle Ltd, manufacturers of Cyclone and Thermobol.

Internationally, concerns have been raised over the ingredients and safety of BSN products. The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) of Australia recently recalled BSN Cell Mass, along with several other products from different manufactures.

TGA, Australia's medicines regulator, labelled the supplement Cell Mass as a class-one defect . . . "potentially threatening or could cause a serious risk to health". It maintained BSN Cell Mass contained traces of coumarin, a prescription drug used to prevent blood clots. Possible side-effects associated with drugs such as coumarin can include excessive bleeding and coumarin should not be used in combination with certain medications, including antibiotics.

Lamps
17-03-2008, 10:33 AM
When contacted by the Sunday Tribune to clarify its position in relation to its products sold in Ireland, BSN referred to a press release in which it stated: "BSN believes that these allegations are based upon unreliable testing methods and it intends to provide the court with independent test results which are based upon proper scientific methods."

Last year, another BSN product, No-Xplode, was taken off the shelves of a number of outlets when a concerned parent called an RTE radio programme after becoming aware that her son, a schools rugby player, had been using supplements against her wishes.

Like Maxi Muscle Thermobol, this product also contained high levels of vitamin B12, meaning it should be sold only with a doctor's prescription.

One schools rugby player speaking on the RTE report, who was not identified, claimed a large number of his rugby colleagues had been using the product. The Irish Medicines Board later visited several outlets and removed the product.

While No-Xplode was not available yesterday in supplement shops and on Irish websites, it is still available online from outside Ireland.

Creatine itself is sometimes dubbed the 'legal steroid'. It was banned in France after the French Agency for Medical Security for Food (AFASS) suggested possible links between creatine and cancer.

The agency quoted studies that showed creatine caused "digestive, muscular and cardiovascular problems".

The AFASS also stated that creatine should be regarded as "contrary to the rules, spirit, significance of sport". Creatine is also banned by the French Rugby Union. It has not been banned by the International Olympic Committee.

The World Anti-doping Agency stated: "Ecdysteroids are not considered a prohibited substance under the WADA list of prohibited substances and methods."

Lamps
17-03-2008, 10:34 AM
A SUNDAY TRIBUNE investigation today reveals that illegal anabolic steroids are openly on sale in a wide range of Irish shops despite proven links with serious health issues and death.

'Maxi-Muscle Cyclone', a product that is considered to be popular among schools rugby players, contains the anabolic steroid beta-ecdysterone in concentrated amounts. The Sunday Tribune found the body building product marketed as the 'all in one' creatine formula in eight stores last week.

When informed of the findings the Irish Medicines Board ordered an immediate investigation. The jars of the body building supplement, which is used to increase lean muscle size and strength, state clearly that it contains beta-ecdysterone.

"The IMB considers that the products Maxi Muscle Cyclone, Maxi Muscle Thermobole and LA Muscle Norateen Heavyweight II are considered to be medicinal products. They are not authorised by the Irish Medicines Board (IMB), " a statement said.

"The IMB can confirm that it is carrying out a number of investigations in relation to the illegal sale of products that are suspected to breach the medicinal products legislation by containing anabolic steroid substance and prescription level vitamins."

Dr Joan Gilvarry, director of the IMB, the state organisation responsible for evaluating the quality, safety and efficacy of medicines in Ireland has stated: "Beta-ecdysterone is an anabolic steroid and it carries all the risks associated with that. It can damage you liver and your heart, increases your blood count and can cause blood clots in your legs and in your lungs which could be fatal.

Absolutely should not be on sale unless it is prescribed by your doctor."

Several stores were selling Maxi-Muscle Cyclone, which contains the anabolic steroid beta-ecdysterone, while some were also selling the slimming product MaxiMuscle Thermobol. The slimming product (Thermbol) containing advanced levels of vitamin b12, should not be legally marketed here.

When contacted by the Sunday Tribune, some of the proprietors were unaware that the anabolic steroid beta-ecdysterone was a potentially fatal substance, or that it should not be sold without prescription. They were also unaware that Maxi Muscle Thermobol should not be legally marketed.

Following a thorough investigation of this industry, the Sunday Tribune confirmed that the following stores in Dublin were last week selling these illegal, and potentially harmful products:

Nutrition Connection, Capel St:

Maxi Muscle Cyclone was on sale but the Sunday Tribune was unable to contact anybody at the store for comment.

Health Matters, Grafton St: Maxi Muscle Cyclone and Maxi Muscle Thermobol were on sale. Store attendents said they were not aware of beta-ecdysterone and elevated levels of vitamin B12 in the products.

Holland and Barrett, Grafton St:

Maxi Muscle Cyclone and Maxi Muscle Thermobol on sale but the Sunday Tribune was unable to contact anybody at the store for commment.

Tony Quinn health centre, 67 Eccles St: Maxi Muscle cyclone on sale. A spokesman said he did not believe the product was illegal in Ireland as beta-ecdysterone was not prohibited under the WADA list.

The Supplement Store, Lr Camden St: Maxi-Muscle Cyclone on sale. A spokesman said he did not believe the product was illegal in Ireland as beta-ecdysterone was not prohibited under the WADA list.

Argos, St Stephen's Green: Maxi Muscle Cyclone and Maxi Muscle Thermobol on sale. The Sunday Tribune was unable to make contact with the store.

Elvery's Sports, Dawson St, Dublin 2: Maxi Muscle Cyclone on sale. A store attendant was unable to comment on the products.

The Health Store, Frascati Centre, Blackrock, Co Dublin: Maxi Muscle Cyclone on sale. A store attendant was unable to comment.

Lamps
17-03-2008, 10:37 AM
Well, well, well.

As it happens I had some dealings with some rogger players over the weekend, and i was struck by their physical size, lads aged between 18 and 21 must have been pushing 17 stone of pure muscle and bulk. Then the Tribune come out and answer all my questions

Its disgusting and something needs to be done about it. Rogby is already losing support because of the team, but this rampant and dangerous steroid abuse by young fellas needs to be addressed.

weekender
17-03-2008, 10:42 AM
I had some dealings with some rogger players over the weekend, and i was struck by their physical size

This is just crying out to be taken out of context in fairness.

raZor
17-03-2008, 10:47 AM
Well, well, well.

As it happens I had some dealings with some rogger players over the weekend, and i was struck by their physical size, lads aged between 18 and 21 must have been pushing 17 stone of pure muscle and bulk. Then the Tribune come out and answer all my questions

Its disgusting and something needs to be done about it. Rogby is already losing support because of the team, but this rampant and dangerous steroid abuse by young fellas needs to be addressed.

So you're immediately jumping to the conclusion they're all supplementing?
Poor.

Lamps
17-03-2008, 10:48 AM
This is just crying out to be taken out of context in fairness.

Small mickeys too allegedly.

Lets stay on topic here, I've been hearing for year from the jocks how its down to gym work and a good diet. This is big news

Lamps
17-03-2008, 10:50 AM
So you're immediately jumping to the conclusion they're all supplementing?
Poor.

No, but quite a few are, there was one polynesian lad there who actually didn't look like he was at all but apparently he hits twice as hard as the rest.

Razor, there are serious questions being raised here.

weekender
17-03-2008, 10:55 AM
This is big news

It is big news. I don't think anyone can really argue with the Tribune investigation, which seems to have been fairly thorough. There are some pretty damning quotes in there.

I was pretty cynical about the article when I started reading it, thinking it was going to be about the scandal of 16 year olds drinking two cans of red bull a week kind of thing, but it suggests a much more sinister problem.

At the risk of sounding like an Examiner editorial, strong action is needed from the IRFU to show that this can't be tolerated. It's a sad day when substance testing is needed in schools rugby but it seems that's the case.

Tube a Pringles
17-03-2008, 10:56 AM
Small mickeys too allegedly.

Lets stay on topic here, I've been hearing for year from the jocks how its down to gym work and a good diet. This is big news


Not really. It's been rife at schools level for the last 20 years.....probably even worse steroid wise.

And the following.....

"The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) is also concerned at the use of supplements in rugby-playing schools, and recently issued guidelines to schools advising against the use of supplements such as creatine.

A Croke Park spokesperson yesterday said: "The GAA would not not encourage the use of creatine-like supplements for its players."

.......is an example of one organisation facing up to the reality of the matter, and the other ignoring it.

Lamps
17-03-2008, 10:58 AM
It is big news. I don't think anyone can really argue with the Tribune investigation, which seems to have been fairly thorough. There are some pretty damning quotes in there.

I was pretty cynical about the article when I started reading it, thinking it was going to be about the scandal of 16 year olds drinking two cans of red bull a week kind of thing, but it suggests a much more sinister problem.

At the risk of sounding like an Examiner editorial, strong action is needed from the IRFU to show that this can't be tolerated. It's a sad day when substance testing is needed in schools rugby but it seems that's the case.

I liked this line.

"Brendan Buckley of the Irish Sports Council said: "There are one or two schools who have adopted good preventative policies, but these schools generally aren't the ones with the winning teams. . . I would be extremely concerned that a blind eye is being turned to this problem by the schools when in fact it is their duty to show leadership.""

Lamps
17-03-2008, 11:00 AM
Not really. It's been rife at schools level for the last 20 years.....probably even worse steroid wise.

And the following.....

"The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) is also concerned at the use of supplements in rugby-playing schools, and recently issued guidelines to schools advising against the use of supplements such as creatine.

A Croke Park spokesperson yesterday said: "The GAA would not not encourage the use of creatine-like supplements for its players."

.......is an example of one organisation facing up to the reality of the matter, and the other ignoring it.

Don't be muddying the waters, which organisation do you think has a bigger drug problem? Do you think the Corn Ui Mhuiri or Harty cup has a rampant steroid problem?

The GAA will rectify any issues it has long before the IRFU.

weekender
17-03-2008, 11:06 AM
For the IRFU's own sake it needs to nip this in the bud or they will face a much bigger scandal down the line. I am prepared to accept that this has been around for some time but I have never seen such compelling evidence.

"Guidelines to schools" me hole.

A see-no-evil approach to this is suicide. I say this as a rugby fan and above all a supporter of Irish rugby.

Tube a Pringles
17-03-2008, 11:16 AM
Don't be muddying the waters, which organisation do you think has a bigger drug problem? Do you think the Corn Ui Mhuiri or Harty cup has a rampant steroid problem?

The GAA will rectify any issues it has long before the IRFU.

I'm not muddying the waters.......that was a quote from the article.

Truck loads of Creatine are used in schools GAA too.

FACT

MonTheHoops
17-03-2008, 12:31 PM
I'm not muddying the waters.......that was a quote from the article.

Truck loads of Creatine are used in schools GAA too.

FACT

Where have you pulled this FACT from? How many trucks do GAA kids go through on average?

Tube a Pringles
17-03-2008, 01:24 PM
Where have you pulled this FACT from? How many trucks do GAA kids go through on average?

3 large trucks a week, for Munstershire alone......

STEVIEG
17-03-2008, 01:33 PM
As it happens I had some dealings with some rogger players over the weekend, and i was struck by their physical size,

How, were you not camped out here all weekend?

LawrenceSummers
17-03-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm not muddying the waters.......that was a quote from the article.

Truck loads of Creatine are used in schools GAA too.

FACT

im sure that some GAA players are using creatine as well, but as far a the level of supplements that they take its rugby players that are maxing out on it, bulk doesnt get you onto the gaa team, and if you see the intercounty players from any county they are small and not at all bulky.


not only the health side of taking these supplements is worrying but the fact that kids are doing more weight lifting and less and less skills work which is going to have a negative effect in years to come.

also players playing careers will surely be shortened by being so big so early, more injuries are going to be happening more often

Lamps
17-03-2008, 01:35 PM
3 large trucks a week, for Munstershire alone......

Take a look at the physique of a harty cup team and compare it with pres senior team, there is no comparison. These young fellas are on something.

Typical jock, rather than face up to and admit there's a problem you start ranting about the GAA.

Tube a Pringles
17-03-2008, 01:45 PM
Take a look at the physique of a harty cup team and compare it with pres senior team, there is no comparison. These young fellas are on something.

Typical jock, rather than face up to and admit there's a problem you start ranting about the GAA.

You know I don't bite bait Lamps.......but I'd love 2 minutes with you in the locker room with a wet towel.......:rolleye s:


Most of the forwards I played with at school would have been on Creatine, one or two would have been injecting too.

I actually shared bulk purchases with lads hurling with CCR. It depends on what regime you are on with regard to the bulk you put on.

I agree with the statement about overdeveloping physically at such a young age. Things can and should be done to prevent this but it's difficult. The hits, even at school are massive.

I remember when I went to play in London, after school, I went from a massive impact scrum regime to an uncontested one. The RFU only allowed contested scrums after the age of 19 at the time (don't know if it's the ssame now).

harveythewonderhorse
17-03-2008, 03:20 PM
do well at rugby=go professional

there in lies some of the problem

scrumpy
17-03-2008, 03:24 PM
supplement use is becoming the norm in many areas i often see 18/19 years taking that stuff after GAA training

nemo7
11-06-2008, 01:13 AM
To say that the majority of school players are on supplements is ridiculous. The competing teams in Munster all have fully equiped gyms in the school partly financed by the IRFU and the Irfu enploy people to attend gym seasons in the gym to make sure their being done correctly. In both Pres and Christians they not only train on the field 3 times a week they would also be in the gym a minumum of 2 mornings a week at half seven. Over the summer their given programmes for 3 weekly gym sessions, so it is only natural they would grow bigger and stronger. YOu only had to look at the U-18's six nations to see that Irish players aren't on supplements.

Rebel Yell
11-06-2008, 10:29 AM
To say that the majority of school players are on supplements is ridiculous. The competing teams in Munster all have fully equiped gyms in the school partly financed by the IRFU and the Irfu enploy people to attend gym seasons in the gym to make sure their being done correctly. In both Pres and Christians they not only train on the field 3 times a week they would also be in the gym a minumum of 2 mornings a week at half seven. Over the summer their given programmes for 3 weekly gym sessions, so it is only natural they would grow bigger and stronger. YOu only had to look at the U-18's six nations to see that Irish players aren't on supplements.

Supplements can help, but only if used correctly...sure, rugby, by it's nature, will attract a lot of supplement use, especially for those young age groups nowadays who seem to be bigger every year...there are a good few young lads in the gym I go to who are schools players...it was never an issue in my day...I'm only 34 but when I was an under 20 player I 'd say the only drug any guy was on was a spliff before the game and twenty pints after it :)

o_2_b_a_rebel
11-06-2008, 10:32 AM
Supplemants are legal. Sport is competetive. People will take them.

Serious rugby players do almost as a rule and the physical nature of the sport makes this almost imperative.

Serious GAA players do too and this is as true as the Tribune article.


Big swing Lamps. Get over it. Its not all the Presidents Men Stuff like.

o_2_b_a_rebel
11-06-2008, 10:34 AM
To say that the majority of school players are on supplements is ridiculous. The competing teams in Munster all have fully equiped gyms in the school partly financed by the IRFU and the Irfu enploy people to attend gym seasons in the gym to make sure their being done correctly. In both Pres and Christians they not only train on the field 3 times a week they would also be in the gym a minumum of 2 mornings a week at half seven. Over the summer their given programmes for 3 weekly gym sessions, so it is only natural they would grow bigger and stronger. YOu only had to look at the U-18's six nations to see that Irish players aren't on supplements.

Look if they are on the Senior teams of any of the major schools they are taking them. This isnt something which is a big secret. Its part and parcel.

nemo7
11-06-2008, 02:58 PM
Look if they are on the Senior teams of any of the major schools they are taking them. This isnt something which is a big secret. Its part and parcel.



I gurantee you that their not out of a 22 man squad maybe 3 would be on them in the Munster schools leinster it's different and in Ulster supplements are very rare it's all talk, it's the acadamies and U-20's where supplements come into it

POL
11-06-2008, 03:09 PM
those lads are eating more than weetabix

ANVIL
11-06-2008, 03:24 PM
Why bother with supplements - in my day a good half dozen pints after training bulked the lads up plenty.

DogTheLangerHunter
11-06-2008, 03:35 PM
Supplements are now the norm in most sports,but became fashionable in rugby schools.Players now take them of their own accord,unlike before where coaches used to encourage the use,it's leading to over-developed muscles and players losing out on skill and agility which are just as important as bulk.

Either way creatine is dangerous.

Rebelred
11-06-2008, 03:43 PM
Supplements are now the norm in most sports,but became fashionable in rugby schools.Players now take them of their own accord,unlike before where coaches used to encourage the use,it's leading to over-developed muscles and players losing out on skill and agility which are just as important as bulk.

Either way creatine is dangerous.

I wouldn't say they're the norm in most field sports to be honest.
Was marking a lad in a Junior Hurling game last week who was clearly a front row of some description. Young lad, big, wide and strong, massive neck on him, but I was amazed by his sheer lack of mobility and agility. I was thinking afterwards that when he stops playing his body is going to be in poor shape.

KolaKubes
11-06-2008, 03:44 PM
The lads on the Harty hurling team in Colman's used be doing serious training. Aerobic, weights etc.

When I came into college and saw the bulk on some of the Pres lads near our department, it was quite eye opening.

They must be training much harder than their country cousins? :rolleyes:

POL
11-06-2008, 04:07 PM
I wouldn't say they're the norm in most field sports to be honest.
Was marking a lad in a Junior Hurling game last week who was clearly a front row of some description. Young lad, big, wide and strong, massive neck on him, but I was amazed by his sheer lack of mobility and agility. I was thinking afterwards that when he stops playing his body is going to be in poor shape.Look at the state of all those ex jocks, big shapless heaps of shite

Edmund Blackwater
11-06-2008, 04:11 PM
The lads on the Harty hurling team in Colman's used be doing serious training. Aerobic, weights etc.

When I came into college and saw the bulk on some of the Pres lads near our department, it was quite eye opening.

They must be training much harder than their country cousins? :rolleyes:
Back in the day, the city jocks would build up there upper body strength by driving around in mummy's Corsa. Now, with the advent of power steering, they need that something extra. Extra training, as you say, is the only conclusion.

As an aside, do steroids affect brain capacity? I only ask because most jocks seem to be as dumb as chimps.

johnmcork
11-06-2008, 04:36 PM
in all fairness, if you're a big lump of a bloke you're going to play to your strengths and try scrummaging instead of solo-runs with the sliothar.
different games, different physique; does not automatically imply steroid misuse.
also; the unfortunate example of a player dying was a GAA player. we are all aware of sudden adult death syndrome which is affects GAA players almost disproportionally. witness the defibs distributed to all GAA clubs. anecdotally, the blame is laid on the excessive demands made on young GAA players who seem to be playing or training almost every night of the week ALL YEAR. this is an equally important issue.
if a young fella wants to push it even more by poisoning himself with likes of creatin, there's not much we can do, no more thn we can for the useless ones who'll be taking a ball of coke and yokes this, and every other weekend.
red bull and vodka or fat frog aren't so great either. there's never a shortage of mogs

Rebel Yell
11-06-2008, 04:37 PM
Look at the state of all those ex jocks, big shapless heaps of shite

I used to play rugger, as well as GAA and soccer...had the perfect physique for all three...lean, muscularbut with tiny amount of bodyfat...I am still incredibly fit and have never touched a supplement/performance enhancing drug in my life...

That said, had i been 18 now and looking to reach a high level in rugby, i would consider supplementation to help the bulking up process...much bigger opponents now than in my day...

johnmcork
11-06-2008, 04:42 PM
I used to play rugger, as well as GAA and soccer...had the perfect physique for all three...lean, muscularbut with tiny amount of bodyfat...I am still incredibly fit and have never touched a supplement/performance enhancing drug in my life...

That said, had i been 18 now and looking to reach a high level in rugby, i would consider supplementation to help the bulking up process...much bigger opponents now than in my day...

fair enough, but tight 5 especially in rugby need a certain physical shape.
i.e john hayes would not be much use at the arsenal.
played all 3 myself as well but never scummaged

Rebel Yell
11-06-2008, 04:46 PM
fair enough, but tight 5 especially in rugby need a certain physical shape.
i.e john hayes would not be much use at the arsenal.
played all 3 myself as well but never scummaged

Agreed on the different positions - i always played on wing or centre...but nowadays even those positions require a lot of bulk most of the time...the hits are far harder than ten years ago...

johnmcork
11-06-2008, 04:58 PM
yeah, of course, at the elite level especially, the only reason i played myself was because i could run like the bejaysus.
the most important point i think though is that this needs to be tackled at source. it needs to be regulated (or banned, or made perscip. only) by the people who govern pharmacys and health stores. the irfu can only do so much. they can't stop it no more than the department of health can stop us smoking fags. that's pretty much it for me.
the competitve streak in these competitions combined with the predominantly honest effort of these young guys should not necessarily be maligned because of ill-advised behaviour whether that behaviour is fringe or epidemic