are liverpool in danger of dropping out of the big 4??

[liam2me]

they are the only team to have recently faltered (when everton came 4th) and are miles of the pace already this year with a few teams only a point or 2 behind, could the big 4 become the big 3?

[gooner]

villa and man city playing well ,

watch yere backs scousers:rolleyes:

[Mr.Mister]

I reckon it'll finish:

1. Arsenal
2. Manchester United
3. Chelsea
4. Manchester City
5. Liverpool

[MonTheHoops]

they are the only team to have recently faltered (when everton came 4th) and are miles of the pace already this year with a few teams only a point or 2 behind, could the big 4 become the big 3?


Suppose it all depends on whether or not Benitez gets backed in the transfer window. I'd personally have sacked him ages ago.

[liam2me]

Suppose it all depends on whether or not Benitez gets backed in the transfer window. I'd personally have sacked him ages ago.
i said it in the summer and it looks like i'm being proven right, the new owners don't seem to have much ambition, not willing to part with their cash to improve the team. with the new TV deal, the extra cash has allowed other teams to catch up. will be an interesting month for liverpool.

[MonTheHoops]

i said it in the summer and it looks like i'm being proven right, the new owners don't seem to have much ambition, not willing to part with their cash to improve the team. with the new TV deal, the extra cash has allowed other teams to catch up. will be an interesting month for liverpool.

I doubt they'd have bought it if they didn't want to make money from it. Maybe they just don't want to throw more money at Rafa.

[liam2me]

I doubt they'd have bought it if they didn't want to make money from it. Maybe they just don't want to throw more money at Rafa.
well there were rumours on SSN, credited to the red tops, that they or at least one of the 2 was looking to sell already, if thats the case it would explain why nothing more is being invested.

[Sound]

The credit crunch has snookered their plans for the stadium and the team.

An embuggerment of the highest water! There is no way on earth they'll cough up the kind of dough being mentioned for Masch for a start.

[ebenezer]

are liverpool in danger of dropping out of the big 4??


Liverpool are not in the ''big 4'' anyway.

It's Manchest United, Arsenal and Chelsea with Manchester City, Everton and Aston Villa trying to break in.

[VzN]

Any of the "2nd tier" in the Prem have the ability to knock the Kop out of the top 4.

[STEVIEG]

Man City need a striker or two before they can contend

they showed Liverpool far too much respect the other day

Everton of the rest look the best, villa are improving but are threadbare

Think Liverpool are nearly gone as title contenders, but 4th should not be a problem

[Liathroidi Mor]

Man City need a striker or two before they can contend

they showed Liverpool far too much respect the other day

Everton of the rest look the best, villa are improving but are threadbare

Think Liverpool are nearly gone as title contenders, but 4th should not be a problem

Being a liverpool fan I have to agree with that!!! We have too many average players in certain positions!!
I don't think the yankee owners are going to throw alot of cash at the team so we haven't necessarily improved over the last 3 to 4 years!!! We are no nearer the title now than when we were then!!

[STEVIEG]

Yeah it was weird tonight as Liverpool started with about 5 midfielders at home to a team who have never taken anything off the big 4


Rafa doesn't have confidence in Kuyt, Crouch and Vorinin yet he bought them all

It may cost him

Steve Bruce got a point there now with Birminham this season and one with Wigan too

Both Arsenal and United have only dropped a point each at home all season

Away from home Liverpool have won more than both, yet at Anfield they seem to draw too much

[Liathroidi Mor]

Yeah it was weird tonight as Liverpool started with about 5 midfielders at home to a team who have never taken anything off the big 4


Rafa doesn't have confidence in Kuyt, Crouch and Vorinin yet he bought them all

It may cost him

Steve Bruce got a point there now with Birminham this season and one with Wigan too

Both Arsenal and United have only dropped a point each at home all season

Away from home Liverpool have won more than both, yet at Anfield they seem to draw too much




Complete opposite to last season!!!

[STEVIEG]

True

Weird, i gotta say

[Liathroidi Mor]

True

Weird, i gotta say

He played 1 centre forward tonight against Wigan FFS.........I think he's in serious trouble now!!! Could Mourinho be our next manager???

[keanos dog]

He played 1 centre forward tonight against Wigan FFS.........I think he's in serious trouble now!!! Could Mourinho be our next manager???

i hope not. he'd do a good job.

[Langer Dan]

Liverpool are goin thru a dip in form and with some very difficult away trips in store id imagine they can kiss their title challenge goodbye. They should have too much class for citeh tho and Id back them to bag fourth spot with relative ease. Going on some of the shit hes brought in, I wouldn blame the yanks for tightening the purse strings. Unless results dramatically improve Id imagine Rafas days are numbered.

[Coin]

He played 1 centre forward tonight against Wigan FFS.........I think he's in serious trouble now!!! Could Mourinho be our next manager???
Rafa's a tinkerer, I think he wanted another look at this 4-2-3-1 formation and reckoned Wigan were a good choice to test it out, since even it if didn't work that well they'd still beat them handy enough.

Personally I think that by the New Year all experimentation should be long over and you should know your best 11 and they best way to play them.

[KolaKubes]

The reality is that there's a "big one".

Arsenal and Liverpool make up the next tier.

Chelsea are nowhere. You can't just bump them into the same category as the other three on the back of their bank balance and a brace of league titles. They've been a nasty little nothing club for most of their history.

[exileonpatrickstreet]

... could the big 4 become the big 3?

been reading football365.com recently, galileo?

[VzN]

The reality is that there's a "big one".

Arsenal and Liverpool make up the next tier.

Chelsea are nowhere. You can't just bump them into the same category as the other three on the back of their bank balance and a brace of league titles. They've been a nasty little nothing club for most of their history.

Who is top of the League may I ask? How many teams have won the title in the past 5 years or so? Hardly a big 'one'.

[Sound]

The reality is that there's a "big one".

Arsenal and Liverpool make up the next tier.

Chelsea are nowhere. You can't just bump them into the same category as the other three on the back of their bank balance and a brace of league titles. They've been a nasty little nothing club for most of their history.

Lay off the crack.

[POL]

The reality is that there's a "big one".

Arsenal and Liverpool make up the next tier.

Chelsea are nowhere. You can't just bump them into the same category as the other three on the back of their bank balance and a brace of league titles. They've been a nasty little nothing club for most of their history.

In Premiership terms ManYoo are number one, then it was at various stages through the years, a combination of either Arsenal, Newcastle, Blackburn and Chelsea,

Liverpool as a soccer club are insignificant in todays English game

[KolaKubes]

Who is top of the League may I ask? How many teams have won the title in the past 5 years or so? Hardly a big 'one'.


Frankly, my natural inclination would be to bracket Liverpool with Utd before I would Arsenal.

Form (and foreign mercenaries) are temporary, class is permanent.

It's just that in Liverpool's case they're a) diluting that "boot room" culture (which was class in every sense) with every passing year and b) it's just so long now since they won a league title.

Incidentally, apparently we have around 330 million fans worldwide.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_art icle_id=502574&in_page_id=1779

Arsenal may be getting wealthier again (largely off the back of absolutely milking their fans at the Emirates), Chelsea's sugar daddy may have more money, Liverpool may have more trophies but the scale of Utd puts them well out in front.

Utd, Milan, Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, Ajax for me.

[3pointplay]

they are the only team to have recently faltered (when everton came 4th) and are miles of the pace already this year with a few teams only a point or 2 behind, could the big 4 become the big 3?

Says a man who follows a team who should not even be in the premier league.;)

[lionelhutz]

Yeah it was weird tonight as Liverpool started with about 5 midfielders at home to a team who have never taken anything off the big 4


Rafa doesn't have confidence in Kuyt, Crouch and Vorinin yet he bought them all

It may cost him

Steve Bruce got a point there now with Birminham this season and one with Wigan too

Both Arsenal and United have only dropped a point each at home all season

Away from home Liverpool have won more than both, yet at Anfield they seem to draw too much

i think rafas on the right track with the 4-3-3/ 4-5-1 formation, its just the personnell that need to change. replace kewell and pennant, who are the key players in that formation, with silva and ribery with a midfield of alonso, masherano and gerrard and torres up top and you have a team that can win the title. getting someone like silva and ribery is the big problem, let alone 2 players of that calibre. anyway, very disappointing result and performance by the sounds of things. torres was supposed to be lively though

[AmadeusDC]

i think rafas on the right track with the 4-3-3/ 4-5-1 formation, its just the personnell that need to change. replace kewell and pennant, who are the key players in that formation, with silva and ribery with a midfield of alonso, masherano and gerrard and torres up top and you have a team that can win the title.

Perhaps in Championship Manager!

I do get what you are saying though. Babel might develop to fill one of those spots but his touch looks dodgy for now. If it really is a flaw in his game then he's lucky he went to Liverpool and not Arsenal where a poor touch would have been exposed horribly. -AmadeusDC-

P.S. Nani at United looks to have the same problems with his first touch. It was brutal that last day especially. Both are young and will hopefully improve though.

[EL TORO]

Frankly, my natural inclination would be to bracket Liverpool with Utd before I would Arsenal.

Form (and foreign mercenaries) are temporary, class is permanent.

It's just that in Liverpool's case they're a) diluting that "boot room" culture (which was class in every sense) with every passing year and b) it's just so long now since they won a league title.

Incidentally, apparently we have around 330 million fans worldwide.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_art icle_id=502574&in_page_id=1779

Arsenal may be getting wealthier again (largely off the back of absolutely milking their fans at the Emirates), Chelsea's sugar daddy may have more money, Liverpool may have more trophies but the scale of Utd puts them well out in front.

Utd, Milan, Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, Ajax for me.

How can you put Utd in front of Madrid?? Even the most blinkered Utd fan has to see that Madrid have outstripped Utd when it comes to European cups and domestic trophies.

[KolaKubes]

How can you put Utd in front of Madrid?? Even the most blinkered Utd fan has to see that Madrid have outstripped Utd when it comes to European cups and domestic trophies.

Utd are a football club, Madrid are a fascist organisation.

I was being charitable even including them.

Not that the clubs were in order in any case.

[STEVIEG]

i think rafas on the right track with the 4-3-3/ 4-5-1 formation, its just the personnell that need to change. replace kewell and pennant, who are the key players in that formation, with silva and ribery with a midfield of alonso, masherano and gerrard and torres up top and you have a team that can win the title. getting someone like silva and ribery is the big problem, let alone 2 players of that calibre. anyway, very disappointing result and performance by the sounds of things. torres was supposed to be lively though

They are further behind this year than last year and he has spent money

Torres was okay but looked isolated

gerrard played a deep lying role against Man City, who had no ambition

the game was crying out for him to be in more of a forward role, but it was probably the manager who wanted him so deep

Same against United

Very strange

[MonTheHoops]

Utd are a football club, Madrid are a fascist organisation.

I was being charitable even including them.

Not that the clubs were in order in any case.

Stop KK for fuck sake.

Madrid are a bigger club than United. Only United fans would disagree.

[legend76]

are liverpool in danger of dropping out of the big 4??? NO, absolutely not

are liverpool in danger of falling further behind the big 3??? YES, in very real danger

[Philby]

He played 1 centre forward tonight against Wigan FFS.........I think he's in serious trouble now!!! Could Mourinho be our next manager???

Could someone please remind me how many strikers Rafa tended to play when he managed to break the Real Madrid/Barca stranglehold in Spain on a (relative) shoestring budget?

I`ll make little excuses for Liverpool´s failure to turn a glut of draws (where they invariably had the lions share of posession & chances) into victories. Quite frankly they´ve cocked up once too many times and the spattering of lob-sided victories (Vs Besiktas, Marseilles, Derby etc) shouldn´t cloud over that fact.

Having said that it´s not like Liverpool played El Niño up front completely on his own vs Wigan and didn´t support him. Both Aurelio & Finnan played very advances roles (I even saw Finnan in the box a couple of times which is unusual for him..in fact one of these forays led directly to the goal) out wide & the wide midfielders (though ineffective on the night) were given licence to roam in support of Torres, as was Gerrard. All in all it was a relatively attacking line-up and one which had the majority of posession and chances. A 1-0 lead even when you´re on top is never secure and Liverpool were unfortunately hit with a sucker-punch when they (Gerrard I believe) should´ve really cleared their lines. People are quick to look at a lineup and result and make a snap judgement, often not after even watching the game themselves.

Will Liverpool finish outside the top 4 this season? I seriously doubt it.

As regards Rafa not having faith in his other strikers..

...does playing 1 up front for 1 game signify that?
...was this line trotted out when Rafa was resting Torres quite a bit in the first half of the campaign?
...if anything Rafa has too much faith in Kuyt, after a promising first season his confidence is at rock bottom and he is providing negative goal threat. He needs to seriously improve or he should be shipped out.

Rafa has underachieved so far this season (esp considering the talent brought in during the summer) but I wouldn´t be calling for his head just yet. He is a fine manager and to be fair to him this was the first season that he has been able to work with what he would call "his squad"...giving him the chop now would be futile, he has a track record in overhauling bigger spending sides, imho there is no better available manager to do it.

P.S. IT´S OFF

[POL]

Rafa is staring to remind me of Houilier

[Philby]

Very insightful. Cheers for that.

[POL]

he hasn't a clue what it takes in business end the premiership, his results against ManYoo are a joke

[VzN]

United are no better than Chelsea nowadays - they are essentially buying silverware. The players also lack educations whilst not having any class on the pitch. Why consider what teams have done over the decades when deciding who is big now?

[POL]

United are no better than Chelsea nowadays - they are essentially buying silverware. The players also lack educations whilst not having any class on the pitch. Why consider what teams have done over the decades when deciding who is big now?in terms of buying silverware and media manipulation, ManYoo are light years ahead

[STEVIEG]

The players also lack educations whilst not having any class on the pitch.

Please tell me you don't follow Arsenal

[STEVIEG]

Could someone please remind me how many strikers Rafa tended to play when he managed to break the Real Madrid/Barca stranglehold in Spain on a (relative) shoestring budget?

He is living off his past in Spain

In England he is living off his European Cup

His Liverpool team do not seem to be getting that much better, and he has bought most of the team

He inherited some of his best players too

Me, i hope he stays

I fancy them to bag another cup this year

Hope it's the smaller one

[ho chi feen]

He is living off his past in Spain

In England he is living off his European Cup

His Liverpool team do not seem to be getting that much better, and he has bought most of the team

He inherited some of his best players too

Me, i hope he stays

I fancy them to bag another cup this year

Hope it's the smaller one

Also, here's a very important point- in Spain he was not in charge of buying and selling. This is where he has fallen down at Liverpool to some extent. Although, to be fair, he has cut his losses well on numerous poor acquisitions.

[Philby]

He is living off his past in Spain

Where he was the most successful manger in Valencia´s history (in just 3 years) winning 2 leagues & a UEFA Cup.

In England he is living off his European Cup

Hmmmm...In the last 3 years he has won:
- 2 European Cup finals
- 1 European Cup
- 1 FA Cup

Hardly living off dim & distant glories is he?

He hasn´t cracked the league (yet) but don´t forget that in 2005/2006 his Liverpool side finished a point off 2nd place which was a sign of definite improvement. Things have gone off the boil in the league since but the competition is fierce and Liverpool do not have any significant advantage over their rivals (finances, stadium capacity, value of current playing squad etc.)

To provide some balance compare this to Ferguson´s record at Utd for the 3 years between 2003/2004 and 2005/2006

- 1 FA Cup
- 1 League Cup

Anyone who advocated sacking Fergie after 3 seasons of relative underachievement would had eggs on their faces now as his Utd side are champions and are well-placed to be there or thereabouts for the foreseeable future.

Also, prior to this blip Fergie had 17 years to bring in a multitude of players over the years (often at huge financial cost) & fine tune every element of the club.

Rafa didn´t have that luxury. Rafa arrived at a club and didn´t like what he saw. He didn´t rate much of the first team, reserve or youth squads. He saw the club´s approach to scouting and youth development as quite primitive. Along with Paco he overhauled the first team´s fitness regime to bring it up to speed.

Rafa is in the middle of trying to make Liverpool great again and is currently contracted until summer 2010. To give him the chop before then (without due cause) would be a foolish move imho and would set the club back years at a key stage in its evolution.

His Liverpool team do not seem to be getting that much better, and he has bought most of the team

IMHO the current squad is a far better one than the one he inherited and would be far more valuable on the open market. The one he inherited was full of dead wood on chunky contracts. Added to that, in general, they are playing better football and are largely underachieving due to an inability to finish a reasonable % of chances that come their way (that means you Dirk!)

He inherited some of his best players too

Of the current first choice 11 only Carra, Finnan & Gerrard (you could poss make an argument for Riise) were at the club when he arrived. That tells its own story. How many of Utd first 11 were around 3 years ago? A few more I bet.

Me, i hope he stays

Me too, glad me agree on something buddy

I fancy them to bag another cup this year

Hope it's the smaller one

There is one cup that he seems pretty handy in, old big ears. A good run in the European Cup would for sure ease some of the pressure he is currently under.

Also, here's a very important point- in Spain he was not in charge of buying and selling. This is where he has fallen down at Liverpool to some extent.

That´s true, he wasn´t, but Rafa has had his fair share of success in the transfer market - Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano (loan), Torres, Garcia, Crouch (bar his initial blip). Sure some of his signings haven´t set the world alight but I don´t see that as being an area where he has underachieved relative to his top 4 rivals.

In many cases he has been forced too for bargain basement solutions - krompkamp, josemi, pellegrino, voronin, arbeloa, nunez, fowler - when the likes of Utd can go out and spend around 55m on defensive midfielders in a year!

Although, to be fair, he has cut his losses well on numerous poor acquisitions.

True that. He has shown himself to be fairly ruthless when an experiment hasn´t worked out. Morientes being a prime example

[Superior]

Good post Philby.

[mvcork]

villa and man city playing well ,

watch yere backs scousers:rolleyes:
As a city fan of long standing Sven the Nobber has to be in the running for manager of the year[We are even playing nice footy to boot]
Happy days
:p

[mvcork]

I reckon it'll finish:

1. Arsenal
2. Manchester United
3. Chelsea
4. Manchester City
5. Liverpool

As a City fan of long standing I wouldn't subscribe to us finishing 4th.Would be amazing but i reckon a European finish is emminently possible at this juncture.
BLUE MOON ETC

[Sound]

he hasn't a clue what it takes in business end the premiership, his results against ManYoo are a joke

Ged's record against Utd was fucking great!

[Sound]

IMHO the current squad is a far better one than the one he inherited and would be far more valuable on the open market. The one he inherited was full of dead wood on chunky contracts. Added to that, in general, they are playing better football and are largely underachieving due to an inability to finish a reasonable % of chances that come their way (that means you Dirk!)



When he arrived the squad was valued at £75M by the city. Now it's £220M.

Which is a smidge of an improvement.

[saltfrog]

philby is spot on lads... benitez makes some strange desicions but is an excellent manager and is slowly moving the team forward. the pool are going through a difficult period but all is not lost and there is a shit load of football to come this season...

the league is prob a step too far at this stage but we'll still have a big say in where it'll end up and we always have a chance in the cups.

[EL TORO]

As a City fan of long standing I wouldn't subscribe to us finishing 4th.Would be amazing but i reckon a European finish is emminently possible at this juncture.
BLUE MOON ETC


If the league were to stay as it is then surely Moyes would be the no.1 candidate for manager of the year. He has guided Everton to the top 6 again , the semis of teh league cup and the last 32 of the Uefa cup with a 1/4 of the money Sven had. The Swede has done wonders at City, but nowhere near the work Moyes has done this year.

[KolaKubes]

Anyone who advocated sacking Fergie....

I don't know did anyone other than the very rare looper advocate sacking Ferguson.

There were a very large number (including myself) who were mumbling about maybe it being time for him to retire but sacking the most successful manager in our history? No.

[KolaKubes]

He has guided Everton to the top 6 again


But Everton are a top six club to my mind.

[ho chi feen]

Ged's record against Utd was fucking great!

For about 2 years out of 6, you mean?

[Sound]

For about 2 years out of 6, you mean?

Eh, No.

[ho chi feen]

Eh, No.

Fair enough, if you include the 2003 fizzy cup final and a fairly meaningless game (for us, not for ye) against a team who'd thrown the towel in in 2004. But by that stage the Ged-United hoodoo was already history.

I'd say overall the record for each side was close enough in that 6 year period, ultimately in our favour.

But I can see how, compared to present day circumstances, given that it's been almost four years since you scored a goal againt us in the league, you might rate 'generally equivalence' as 'super'.

[Sound]

Fair enough, if you include the 2003 fizzy cup final and a fairly meaningless game (for us, not for ye) against a team who'd thrown the towel in in 2004. But by that stage the Ged-United hoodoo was already history.

I'd say overall the record for each side was close enough in that 6 year period, ultimately in our favour.

But I can see how, compared to present day circumstances, given that it's been almost four years since you scored a goal againt us in the league, you might rate 'generally equivalence' as 'super'.

Yes I would include a cup final and a league fixture.

I'm funny like that.

That last bit is very Hornby-esque old chap. Even when Liverpool were a colossus striding the land, the record against Utd was ropey.

[EL TORO]

But Everton are a top six club to my mind.


Believe me Kola, having supported Everton for over 25 years, It hasnt felt that way for quite a while. We may be the 4th most successful club in the country but thats for the history books. That said, its great to be back!

[Sound]

I like it that Everton are doing well again. It may make the derbies even more fraught but it just feels right.

Dont sell Arteta lads. Seriously.

[KolaKubes]

Yes I would include a cup final and a league fixture.

I'm funny like that.

That last bit is very Hornby-esque old chap. Even when Liverpool were a colossus striding the land, the record against Utd was ropey.

Hornbyite is the term.

[EL TORO]

I like it that Everton are doing well again. It may make the derbies even more fraught but it just feels right.

Dont sell Arteta lads. Seriously.

Absolutely no chance of Mikel going anywhere soon. There would be Blue murder in the stands. The fans are pissed off enough about moving to Kirkby but selling Arteta would be too much. He doesnt seem to want a move anyway, the team spirit at Everton is top notch and all the players seem to enjoy being at the club, even Faddy, contrary to what ever the Sky bullshit machine comes out with.

[ho chi feen]

Yes I would include a cup final and a league fixture.

I'm funny like that.

That last bit is very Hornby-esque old chap. Even when Liverpool were a colossus striding the land, the record against Utd was ropey.

The record was even. Towards the end, we dominated it to a large extent.

I can't think of the pre 2000/01 results in their entirity, but just going off those which I can, we were well in control.

Then Ged went and won 4 consecutive encounters (5 if you want to include the Charidee shield... please, let's not demean this forum by doing so), before we turned it around: winning the next three in the league, losing one, losing the worthless.

Again, this is looking fairly even but tipped over our direction.

Great?

Hmmm.

[Sound]

The record was even. Towards the end, we dominated it to a large extent.

I can't think of the pre 2000/01 results in their entirity, but just going off those which I can, we were well in control.

Then Ged went and won 4 consecutive encounters (5 if you want to include the Charidee shield... please, let's not demean this forum by doing so), before we turned it around: winning the next three in the league, losing one, losing the worthless.

Again, this is looking fairly even but tipped over our direction.

Great?

Hmmm.

2000/2001 ended in a 1-0 win for Utd at home and a 2-1 loss at Anfield.

And that cup meant a hell of a lot to me due to who it was won against.

[ho chi feen]

2000/2001 ended in a 1-0 win for Utd at home and a 2-1 loss at Anfield.

And that cup meant a hell of a lot to me due to who it was won against.

I thought both 2000/2001 encounters went Liverpool's way. In fact, I'd bet money that they did.

1-0 and 2-0 to Pool IIRC.

[STEVIEG]

In fairness, the Carling Cup meant a lot to Houllier

It was part of his famous Treble in 2001.........

[STEVIEG]

Hmmmm...In the last 3 years he has won:
- 2 European Cup finals


He has won 2 European Cup finals in the last 3 years

Right!!!!!!

[STEVIEG]

Where he was the most successful manger in Valencia´s history (in just 3 years) winning 2 leagues & a UEFA Cup.





By saying he did well with shit resources years ago it implies living in the past

He hasn't done well with big money so far

[POL]

He has won 2 European Cup finals in the last 3 years

Right!!!!!!pwned

[STEVIEG]

He hasn´t cracked the league (yet) but don´t forget that in 2005/2006 his Liverpool side finished a point off 2nd place which was a sign of definite improvement.

Coinciding with the worst era in modern Man United history and an Arsenal rebuilding process


Again, celebrating coming second is pointless, unless you come first the year after

[STEVIEG]

To provide some balance compare this to Ferguson´s record at Utd for the 3 years between 2003/2004 and 2005/2006

- 1 FA Cup
- 1 League Cup

Anyone who advocated sacking Fergie after 3 seasons of relative underachievement would had eggs on their faces now

Half the forum are guilty, some united fans included

A period of transition, i agree with you on this

[STEVIEG]

Of the current first choice 11 only Carra, Finnan & Gerrard (you could poss make an argument for Riise) were at the club when he arrived. That tells its own story. How many of Utd first 11 were around 3 years ago? A few more I bet.





All big players and automatic choices

[STEVIEG]

There is one cup that he seems pretty handy in, old big ears. A good run in the European Cup would for sure ease some of the pressure he is currently under.



Agreed


It may save him again



I don' think they should sack him either, and i don't think they will drop further back


That said, i've never rated him and stand by my original synopsis that i posted here a few years ago (Are you Houllier in disguise?)

The question is, can they get someone better?

Liverpool is not a club that generally sacks managers and anyone would have a tough job following him

[Sound]

I thought both 2000/2001 encounters went Liverpool's way. In fact, I'd bet money that they did.

1-0 and 2-0 to Pool IIRC.

Better memory than me but this does prove my point. Especially when put in the context of Liverpool's historical record against Utd even in the good old days which you've conveniently overlooked.

[ho chi feen]

Better memory than me but this does prove my point. Especially when put in the context of Liverpool's historical record against Utd even in the good old days which you've conveniently overlooked.

Well, I don't know, but in the greater scheme of things across history, I'd imagine to head-to-head record to be relatively even.

It's the semantics- I'd take 'great' to imply not merely just better than, but considerably better than the other sides record in a given time-frame; not less good without being completely embarrassing. For two years it was 'great'; the rest of his reign less so.

But, if you're talking in relative terms, by comparison to Rafa, his record was stupdendous!

Anyway, let's move on.

[POL]

I believe Rafa to be yet another bluffer in the long line of bluffers that has recently been in the Liverpool hot seat, he'll be found in the premiership, and you can quote me on that

[Sound]

I believe Rafa to be yet another bluffer in the long line of bluffers that has recently been in the Liverpool hot seat, he'll be found in the premiership, and you can quote me on that

Indeed. You can find him there right now.

Arf.

[POL]

I was thinking over lunch there today, It must be very frustrating for lads now around the 30-35 age to have selected Liverpool as their team at the end of the 80's, they must have thought they'd dominate for years

[EL TORO]

I was thinking over lunch there today, It must be very frustrating for lads now around the 30-35 age to have selected Liverpool as their team at the end of the 80's, they must have thought they'd dominate for years


In fairness POL the game is nothing if not cyclical, every dog will have its day and all that. Liverpool are just yesterday's man u. Sure tis only Arsenal and Everton who have the longest run in topflight football. How boring would it be if the same teams were on top eternally.

[KolaKubes]

I was thinking over lunch there today, It must be very frustrating for lads now around the 30-35 age to have selected Liverpool as their team at the end of the 80's, they must have thought they'd dominate for years

Very frustrating indeed.

[KolaKubes]

In fairness POL the game is nothing if not cyclical, every dog will have its day and all that. Liverpool are just yesterday's man u. Sure tis only Arsenal and Everton who have the longest run in topflight football. How boring would it be if the same teams were on top eternally.

And Arsenal are only there because they were "elected" into the top flight at the start.

[mvcork]

In fairness POL the game is nothing if not cyclical, every dog will have its day and all that. Liverpool are just yesterday's man u. Sure tis only Arsenal and Everton who have the longest run in topflight football. How boring would it be if the same teams were on top eternally.
They are and thats the problem.

[Philby]

He has won 2 European Cup finals in the last 3 years

Right!!!!!!

Good spot...had just the competitions won listed but felt that getting to the final of the premier competition in world was noteworthy enough to merit inclusion.

By saying he did well with shit resources years ago it implies living in the past

I didn`t realise that a team/player/manager`s achievements have an expiry date to be honest fella. It`s not like Liverpool have been wallowing in mediocrity during Rafa`s reign...bar the blip in recent weeks, on balance, the general view would be that he has been quite successful at the club.

He hasn't done well with big money so far

He has only had "big money" to work with in any meaningful sense in the summer just past (and even then I`d be surprised if his net spend was much higher than 20m when the sale of Pongolle at the arse end of last season is taken into account).

Coinciding with the worst era in modern Man United history and an Arsenal rebuilding process

1. Arsenal rebuilding - to a degree but it was purely a conscious decision by a manager in the job a long time? Fair enough but surely a manager with only 12 months in the job and in the process of largely overhauling his squad can is in a worse situation if anything

2. It doesn`t matter a bit if it was during a downturn in Utd`s fortune. By definition when a team does (relatively) well (like Liverpool did to be so close to 2nd...and I realise that doing so is no REAL achievement before I`m reminded) other teams (relatively speaking) will have done worse.

Again, celebrating coming second is pointless, unless you come first the year after

They didn`t even come 2nd but I agree with your point however finishing 2nd would have to be viewed as a sign of positive progress if a side hasn`t finished that high on a regular basis in recent years..no?

I believe Rafa to be yet another bluffer in the long line of bluffers that has recently been in the Liverpool hot seat, he'll be found in the premiership, and you can quote me on that

Any chance you`d care to outline why you think Rafa, recognised as one of the most knowledgeable managers in the game, is a "bluffer"?

That said, i've never rated him and stand by my original synopsis that i posted here a few years ago (Are you Houllier in disguise?)

The question is, can they get someone better?

IMHO There`s not too many managers in world football as good as Rafa, and certainly none that could compare to him would be available.

I`m surprised that a fella as generally level-headed as yourself would say that he doesn`t rate Benitez for his achievements to date. A whole host of top managers & players in world football would disagree with you.

All big players and automatic choices

Still only 3 players who have remained as first team regulars...those lining up around them are all new players as are the vast majority of those vying to make it into the first 11. The squad has been drastically altered in a very short space of time.

[STEVIEG]

Couldn't be arsed ruining my Friday night by talkjing about the over-rated one, but the guy

1-has had money to spend

2-Has turned over loads of players who all cost money and most of who failed
Arsenal turned around nearly all their first choice 11 and are top

3-spent big bucks on guys like Voronin who had poor goal scoring records
Hardly the solution-edit Voronin was free, but my point stands on some of his strikers

In fairness he bought two of the most obviously good young players in World football, Mascherano, assuming they get him, and Torres, but anyone could have told you they, like Tevez and Rooney, were going to be good

They are a good cup team, one of the best, in cups you can draw and get away with it by getting to peno's and scoring more than your opponents

Leagues, the real benchmarks, are not so forgiving

You are talking about a recent blip???????

as far as i know these blips have been here for years

Next year may be different though

Liverpool still have more leagues than anyone, so you should be happy

In Rafa we trust

[STEVIEG]

I`m surprised that a fella as generally level-headed as yourself would say that he doesn`t rate Benitez for his achievements to date. A whole host of top managers & players in world football would disagree with you.


He's done well at valencia but bar a spectacular European Cup victory in 2005, he has been a dissapointment at liverpool

In my opinion

Every year we are told they are 3 players away, yet every year they fail to live up to their expectations

[AmadeusDC]

He's done well at valencia but bar a spectacular European Cup victory in 2005, he has been a dissapointment at liverpool

In my opinion

Every year we are told they are 3 players away, yet every year they fail to live up to their expectations

I dunno Stevie..........they do exactly what I expect every year!! ;) :D

-AmadeusDC-

[STEVIEG]

and long may it continue!


I'm not saying the guy is crap btw, i just don't think he is top class and i certainly don't think he is the saviour

I know a few Liverpool fans who think that winning the European Cup in his first season has brought him an auru of untouchability in many fans eyes, and i agree

[ho chi feen]

He has only had "big money" to work with in any meaningful sense in the summer just past (and even then I`d be surprised if his net spend was much higher than 20m when the sale of Pongolle at the arse end of last season is taken into account).

United's net spend since Rafa arrived: £62.4m

Liverpool's net spend since Rafa arrived: £64.312m.

http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=120 864&page=2

Ho-hum.

[Lee Bushwacker]

Also, here's a very important point- in Spain he was not in charge of buying and selling. This is where he has fallen down at Liverpool to some extent. Although, to be fair, he has cut his losses well on numerous poor acquisitions.

When he was with Valencia he wanted to buy another striker but he wasn't given the money. This is the reason why he left. :mrgreen:

[STEVIEG]

Djibril Cisse (okay not his fault)
Josemi
Javier Luis Garcia
Xabi Alonso
Fernando Morientes
Scott Carson
Reina
Mark Gonzalez
Mohamed Sissoko
Peter Crouch
Daniel Agger
Craig Bellamy
Gabriel Paletta
Jermaine Pennant
Dirk Kuyt
Alvaro Arbeloa
Javier Mascherano
Fernando Torres
Ryan Babel
Voronin etc

He has brought a lot in, some good, some bad, i'm sure i've missed a few too

[Lee Bushwacker]

:)
To be honest I think that Rafa is very knowledgeable about the game and is a gentleman also.
Man Utd went from 1967 - 1993 without winning the title and in the process "went through" the following managers.
Wilf McGuinness, Frank O Farrell, Tommy Docerty, Dave Sexton and Ron Atkinson. Liverpool seem to be stuck in a similar situation not having won the title since 1989/90. United finall showed patience with Alex and it paid off.
I don't think that Rafa is ever going to come close to Alex's record but to fire him now would be a very backward step in my opinion. Since Kenny Dalglish walked out the club has neither been fortunate or inspired in their choice of managers.
Rafa should be given time as Alex was because he seems to be going in the right direction even though it is proving to be a slow proccess.
When Alex took over at OT in Nov 1986 United were in the bottom 3 but top of the "boozers league".
What do other forum members think? :)

[STEVIEG]

As ever when discussing managers getting sacked my view is

Who have ya got better coming in?

Otherwise, stick to what ya got

Change for the sake of it is pointless, in fairness, Liverpool tend to keep their managers and give them a chance

[MonTheHoops]

United's net spend since Rafa arrived: £62.4m

Liverpool's net spend since Rafa arrived: £64.312m.

http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=120 864&page=2

Ho-hum.

To be fair, the United team was complimented with that money, not built from scratch. Benitez had to weed out a lot of dross.

[Loftydog]

If liverpool were to drop out of the big 4 it would be fucking excellent for west ham...

[xvis]

Of the current first choice 11 only Carra, Finnan & Gerrard (you could poss make an argument for Riise) were at the club when he arrived. That tells its own story. How many of Utd first 11 were around 3 years ago? A few more I bet.

United have pretty much a new team from 3 years ago.

Van der Sar, Evra, Vidic, Anderson, Carrick, Hargreaves, Nani, and Tevez have all joined in under that time.

...and Rooney is 3.5 years at the club, signed a few months after Rafa took over.
(In that similar period Rafa spent on £20m forwards in Cisse and Morientes)

http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=18154 87&postcount=43


So, United's present starting eleven contains only Ferdinand, Brown, Giggs and Ronaldo from the pre-Rafa days.
(Neville would replace Brown, and Scholes would be an additional starter if available in the middle)


..not too dissimilar to Liverpool situation with Riise, Carragher, Finnan and Gerrard.
(And even Hyypia! ..it could be five! his critics have been quiet the last couple of months).


In worst case terms with everyone fit, United would have 5 starters from pre-Rafa (and that's with Giggs, Neville and Scholes on the way out) and Liverpool would have 3.


***


But I agree, Rafa needs to be either sacked or backed with money for just a little bit more. Sacked if they think they can get Jose.
Jose would be worshipped at Anfield as a modern day Shankly after a few zany press conferences.


It's up to the owners, ..Rafa has been praised for being ruthless and cutting his losses on a few players. The owners may need to show the same decisivness.

[#11sully]

United have pretty much a new team from 3 years ago.

Van der Sar, Evra, Vidic, Anderson, Carrick, Hargreaves, Nani, and Tevez have all joined in under that time.

...and Rooney is 3.5 years at the club, signed a few months after Rafa took over.
(In that similar period Rafa spent on £20m forwards in Cisse and Morientes)

http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showpost.php?p=18154 87&postcount=43


So, United's present starting eleven contains only Ferdinand, Brown, Giggs and Ronaldo from the pre-Rafa days.
(Neville would replace Brown, and Scholes would be an additional starter if available in the middle)


..not too dissimilar to Liverpool situation with Riise, Carragher, Finnan and Gerrard.
(And even Hyypia! ..it could be five! his critics have been quiet the last couple of months).


In worst case terms with everyone fit, United would have 5 starters from pre-Rafa (and that's with Giggs, Neville and Scholes on the way out) and Liverpool would have 3.


***


But I agree, Rafa needs to be either sacked or backed with money for just a little bit more. Sacked if they think they can get Jose.
Jose would be worshipped at Anfield as a modern day Shankly after a few zany press conferences.


It's up to the owners, ..Rafa has been praised for being ruthless and cutting his losses on a few players. The owners may need to show the same decisivness.

Gerrard Houllier signed Cisse in July 2004

[xvis]

Gerrard Houllier signed Cisse in July 2004

and Rafa Benitez became Liverpool manager on June 16th 2004.

After quitting Valencia on June 1st. I'm sure Rafa had some form of veto on the signing.

[raZor]

Don't think so Xvis, Houllier had the deal wrapped up in january, Benitez almost wanted rid straight away.

[xvis]

Don't think so Xvis, Houllier had the deal wrapped up in january, Benitez almost wanted rid straight away.

Houllier had lined up the deal and Parry would have done a lot of work but Ged was sacked at the end of May and Cisse was not out of contract at his former club, so if Liverpool wanted to quit the deal they were well with in their rights to do so.

Fact is Cisse was well sought at the time and they didn't cancel their interest.


edit: It's a bit harsh on Benitez, ..it was Houllier's parting 'gift' to the club.
but I still reckon it could have been canceled if desired.

[Sound]

Houllier had lined up the deal and Parry would have done a lot of work but Ged was sacked at the end of May and Cisse was not out of contract at his former club, so if Liverpool wanted to quit the deal they were well with in their rights to do so.

Fact is Cisse was well sought at the time and they didn't cancel their interest.


edit: It's a bit harsh on Benitez, ..it was Houllier's parting 'gift' to the club.
but I still reckon it could have been canceled if desired.

Pre-contract was already signed. You cant have it everyway Xvis.

[nemesis]

Frankly, my natural inclination would be to bracket Liverpool with Utd before I would Arsenal.

Form (and foreign mercenaries) are temporary, class is permanent.

It's just that in Liverpool's case they're a) diluting that "boot room" culture (which was class in every sense) with every passing year and b) it's just so long now since they won a league title.

Incidentally, apparently we have around 330 million fans worldwide.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_art icle_id=502574&in_page_id=1779

Arsenal may be getting wealthier again (largely off the back of absolutely milking their fans at the Emirates), Chelsea's sugar daddy may have more money, Liverpool may have more trophies but the scale of Utd puts them well out in front.

Utd, Milan, Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, Ajax for me.

FFS. Milan aren't even the most important side in Milan.

And no Juventus? You're having a laugh.