English teams are robbing game of skill, says Valdano

[KolaKubes]

http://football.guardian.co .uk/print/0,,329812104-103,00.html

Although, mind, it's Benitez and Mourinho he's having a pop at it quite specifically.

He's hit the nail on the head though.

And driven it through the plank.

[Sound]

It was a shit game- he should build a bridge and get over it.

No-one was proclaiming the same when Milan and Juve served up just as bad in the 2003 final. It's some laugh when an Italian team are being portrayed as the artists given the history of their football.

Seriously KK, you're getting as bad as the other two for the same shit over and over no matter how many times you're slapped down.

[MonTheHoops]

This is the same Milan that couldn't put a goal past Telfer, McManus, O'Dea & Naylor over 180 minutes.

[jimmy magee]

the italian system can mean negative football of course, but when applied properly, like the first half v Utd (ideal scenario), it is truly the beautiful game, the perfect balance.


look at chelsea, some seriously skillful players yet....

[KolaKubes]

This is the same Milan that couldn't put a goal past Telfer, McManus, O'Dea & Naylor over 180 minutes.

Mon, you really shouldn't be using your own team as a measure of how shite Milan are, very unbecoming! ;)

[KolaKubes]

the italian system can mean negative football of course, but when applied properly, like the first half v Utd (ideal scenario), it is truly the beautiful game, the perfect balance.


look at chelsea, some seriously skillful players yet....

I'm on record as saying I really like Italian football for the above reasons.

Good defending and careful probing football.

Comparing the conservatism of the Italian game to the hit and hope nonsense that Chelsea and Liverpool served up in that game (and many others this season) is absolute nonsense. They bear no relation to each other apart from the similar lack of goals.

[Sound]

I'm on record as saying I really like Italian football for the above reasons.

Good defending and careful probing football.

Comparing the conservatism of the Italian game to the hit and hope nonsense that Chelsea and Liverpool served up in that game (and many others this season) is absolute nonsense. They bear no relation to each other apart from the similar lack of goals.

Liverpool played any football that was played in that game and created the vast majority of the chances.

And anyone that actually watched the 2003 final will testify that it was far from calcio and just utter tripe served up by two defensive teams that knew each other too well.

Sound familiar?

Tell you what- next time we'll just decide football matches with a panel who decides which side is prettier.

[Jim Comic]

his theory holds no water, plenty of good managers had mediocre playing careers includlng wenger whose arsenal side play some amazing footie at times. Fergie was no great shakes as a player either, nor rinus michels, etc, etc

[xvis]

"a shit hanging from a stick"


"a shit hanging from a stick"

....I like it. It described the matches well, ..awful to watch.
This man strode on the pitch as Maradona swept to a World Cup so he's well entitled to his opinion.

[homer jay]

hit and hope nonsense that Chelsea and Liverpool served up in that game (and many others this season).

start naming games.

[POL]

Liverpool played any football that was played in that game and created the vast majority of the chances.

And anyone that actually watched the 2003 final will testify that it was far from calcio and just utter tripe served up by two defensive teams that knew each other too well.

Sound familiar?

Tell you what- next time we'll just decide football matches with a panel who decides which side is prettier.
I want to be on the panel, I think we should have six senior board members to adjudicate on these things, drawn from a crosss section of SFI and SFNE''s

[Sound]

his theory holds no water, plenty of good managers had mediocre playing careers includlng wenger whose arsenal side play some amazing footie at times. Fergie was no great shakes as a player either, nor rinus michels, etc, etc

Shanks won a mighty 4 caps.

As for the bit about the Anfield crowd supporting anything, I would prefer that to the hysterical hanky-waving of the Spanish.

Booing Ronaldo/Rivaldo/Raul- check,
Monkey-chanting Eto'o etc- check.

[POL]

the italian system can mean negative football of course, but when applied properly, like the first half v Utd (ideal scenario), it is truly the beautiful game, the perfect balance.


look at chelsea, some seriously skillful players yet....Football is only good when ManYoo play it

[MonTheHoops]

Mon, you really shouldn't be using your own team as a measure of how shite Milan are, very unbecoming! ;)

Worst Celtic side in years, I've no problem acknowledging it. I wouldn't dream of happyclapping this Celtic side.

[KolaKubes]

Liverpool played any football that was played in that game and created the vast majority of the chances.

And anyone that actually watched the 2003 final will testify that it was far from calcio and just utter tripe served up by two defensive teams that knew each other too well.

Sound familiar?

Tell you what- next time we'll just decide football matches with a panel who decides which side is prettier.

I don't remember any football being played. There were a few decent Chelsea moves at Stamford Bridge but that was about it.

Look, call it a disturbing fetish or whatever but I quite enjoyed the Juventus and Milan game. It was "interesting" rather than entertaining shall we say.

In saying all this, "supporting" Arsenal on Sunday, I was able to get a grasp on just what is wrong with that team and why "pretty" football in itself will win you fuck all.

Arsenal (at the moment) are pure bullshit. They are trying to play a brand of football that only works if the opposition is nice enough to allow you as much time and space as you want and no physical contact.

Beyond that, they seem to want to walk the ball into the net. No deflected, scruffy goals for our gooners.

This, like I say, is crap too. Football is a contact sport, not fucking ballet.

I just believe firmly that the very best teams are a balance between the two.

Liverpool and Chelsea are one extreme, Arsenal the other, Utd are just right. ;)

[Sound]

his theory holds no water, plenty of good managers had mediocre playing careers includlng wenger whose arsenal side play some amazing footie at times. Fergie was no great shakes as a player either, nor rinus michels, etc, etc

Still ungracious despite Pool fans by and large congratulating Utd on their league win?

Nothing new here.

[jimmy magee]

And anyone that actually watched the 2003 final will testify that it was far from calcio and just utter tripe served up by two defensive teams that knew each other too well.



true --

[Jim Comic]

"pretty" football in itself will win you fuck all.


won them the league a few seasons ago if i recall correctly.

[homer jay]

I don't remember any football being played. There were a few decent Chelsea moves at Stamford Bridge but that was about it.

Look, call it a disturbing fetish or whatever but I quite enjoyed the Juventus and Milan game. It was "interesting" rather than entertaining shall we say.

In saying all this, "supporting" Arsenal on Sunday, I was able to get a grasp on just what is wrong with that team and why "pretty" football in itself will win you fuck all.

Arsenal (at the moment) are pure bullshit. They are trying to play a brand of football that only works if the opposition is nice enough to allow you as much time and space as you want and no physical contact.

Beyond that, they seem to want to walk the ball into the net. No deflected, scruffy goals for our gooners.

This, like I say, is crap too. Football is a contact sport, not fucking ballet.

I just believe firmly that the very best teams are a balance between the two.

Liverpool and Chelsea are one extreme, Arsenal the other, Utd are just right. ;)

Football is only good when ManYoo play it


indeed

[KolaKubes]

start naming games.

Any game with Crouch starting (why else would you have him on a football team).

Essentially every Chelsea game. Crossing the ball from the half-way line, Drogba bombing around after 50:50 balls.

[jimmy magee]

Arsenal for the league next year i'd say...

[KolaKubes]

won them the league a few seasons ago if i recall correctly.

That was a different team.

Mind, now you mention it, the invincibles had one fairly dramatic collapse the following year though eh?

[jimmy magee]

Crossing the ball from the half-way line, Drogba bombing around after 50:50 balls.

with unprecedented effectiveness in fairness--- Drogba's the ultimate premiership striker

[MonTheHoops]

Liverpool and Chelsea are one extreme, Arsenal the other, Utd are just right. ;)

I know you've a smiley there but this is the opinion of thousands of United fans around the country. I'm not one for happyclapping my own but there's a lot of tripe in the current Celtic side and just as much tripe in the current United side. It just so happens that United & Celtic's shite happens to currently be better than everyone else's shite.

Take a look at the champions celebrations pictures in the other thread.......Richard son, Smith, Silvestre, Fletcher...a veritable who's who of average footballers. I won't even tackle the current Celtic side.

Show me someone who doesn't have reservations about their side this season and I'll show you an ignoramus with a cheshire cat grin.

[KolaKubes]

Arsenal for the league next year i'd say...


Arsenal will be playing with one hand behind their back if they start next season with Fabregas in their central midfield while their rivals are picking from the likes of Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano, Essien, Makelele, Obi Mikel, Carrick, Hargreaves/De Rossi

Lovely little player on the ball but the kid is a liability defensively right now.

Just not my idea of a central midfielder.

[jimmy magee]

on a tangent but for all the hoofing of the semi-final, Crouch was owned by Terry. Owned i tell you..This is the man who has wreaked havoc with his size all year..

Terry is more suited to the English game plus important to Chelsea than Carvalho..

[Jim Comic]

That was a different team.


thought the thread was about the managers/coaches, no?

[homer jay]

Any game with Crouch starting (why else would you have him on a football team).

did you actually watch any liverpool games this season? you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

example 1. arsenal at anfield. pool playing great football and winning 4-1 with crouch getting the perfect hat-trick

example 2. psv away. pool playing very well and completely controlling the game.

example 3. chelsea at anfield. pool played very well, and completely controlled the game.

that's just 3 off the top of my head.

another defeat for the manc myth that they play the bestest football, and everyone else plays shit football.

[jimmy magee]

Arsenal will be playing with one hand behind their back if they start next season with Fabregas in their central midfield while their rivals are picking from the likes of Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano, Essien, Makelele, Obi Mikel, Carrick, Hargreaves/De Rossi

Lovely little player on the ball but the kid is a liability defensively right now.

Just not my idea of a central midfielder.

he's an unnatural passer though, PLUS he has a natural understanding with Henry.. look out for it, telling ya, he understands Henry's movement perfectly.

Arsenal probably will have to bulk up in midfield ..notice their defensive frailty while at the same time Gilberto Silva has scored double figures..there's balance missing in the centre all right

saying that though when Arsenal are on form there's no stopping them--its like watching two five-a-side- teams overlapping, its class.

plus they're rightly underdogs after this seasons showing...

[KolaKubes]

with unprecedented effectiveness in fairness--- Drogba's the ultimate premiership striker

Very fair point.

It's largely arisen through the crackdown on "foul play". UEFA/FIFA thought it would help protect small, skillful players. Instead, it's been exploited by tacticians who realise that you can put a Drogba, Davies, Frei type up top who'll get in and challenge for 50:50 balls and then go down clutching their face/leg/ankle/back and win a fair proportion of free kicks near the opposition box. At least back in the first manifestation of long ball, these guys had to actually win the ball, now all they need to do is get their body in the way and claim a foul.

It's a serious problem and will need to be addressed. I would suggest flashing yellow cards for each and every incidence of a dive or feigned injury would work wonders.

I know you've a smiley there but this is the opinion of thousands of United fans around the country. I'm not one for happyclapping my own but there's a lot of tripe in the current Celtic side and just as much tripe in the current United side. It just so happens that United & Celtic's shite happens to currently be better than everyone else's shite.

Take a look at the champions celebrations pictures in the other thread.......Richard son, Smith, Silvestre, Fletcher...a veritable who's who of average footballers. I won't even tackle the current Celtic side.

Show me someone who doesn't have reservations about their side this season and I'll show you an ignoramus with a cheshire cat grin.

Oh, they're going spare about Richardson being at the centre of most of the photos when you see the likes of Scholes barely visible in the background.

Look at any photo of 1999 and you'd think David May had just won the treble single-handedly.

Mind, you're being harsh on Smith and Fletcher there and every team needs its squad players. Look at the disharmony that having players like Shevchenko on the bench fomented at Chelsea. It's just not doable to have 20 top class players in your squad without affecting morale.

[MonTheHoops]

Mind, you're being harsh on Smith and Fletcher there and every team needs its squad players. Look at the disharmony that having players like Shevchenko on the bench fomented at Chelsea. It's just not doable to have 20 top class players in your squad without affecting morale.

Actually I'll take back what I said about Fletcher. He was brought through the ranks and does his best when he takes the field regardless of what level his best is at. Smith on the other hand is a luxury player - costs a huge amount in wages, cost a transfer fee and can't make himself a permanent fixture in the first 11.

Fletcher might not be good enough either but at least he's not trying to fool anyone.

[KolaKubes]

did you actually watch any liverpool games this season? you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

example 1. arsenal at anfield. pool playing great football and winning 4-1 with crouch getting the perfect hat-trick

example 2. psv away. pool playing very well and completely controlling the game.

example 3. chelsea at anfield. pool played very well, and completely controlled the game.

that's just 3 off the top of my head.

another defeat for the manc myth that they play the bestest football, and everyone else plays shit football.

I saw the Arsenal game at Anfield, you have a point there.

I wouldn't agree with Chelsea at Anfield in the league. Yes, you controlled the game but Chelsea's lack of height at the back was critical.

Liverpool don't play the same style of football as Chelsea but its still very direct and formulaic. Banging it into the corners quickly, maybe bringing an overlapping full back into the game and then cross after cross after cross.

Effective but not effective enough, the league table tells its own story in that respect.

But you can go away hailing "another myth defeated" or whatever silliness you're on about if you like. The facts (such as 83 goals scored this season, 123 in all competitions) would tend to support us bumslappers.

[jimmy magee]

Actually I'll take back what I said about Fletcher. He was brought through the ranks and does his best when he takes the field regardless of what level his best is at. Smith on the other hand is a luxury player - costs a huge amount in wages, cost a transfer fee and can't make himself a permanent fixture in the first 11.

Fletcher might not be good enough either but at least he's not trying to fool anyone.

only reason fletcher is around cos Fergie likes these niches in his squad... The eager Asian, the muckshite Irishman, the young lad that reminds him of himself who just might be the scottish hope for the future. The old reliables who've come up through the ranks....

[MonTheHoops]

only reason fletcher is around cos Fergie likes these niches in his squad...

Are you trying to say it's some kind of beautiful, intended mistake that these people are around the club?

[RonnyB]

did you actually watch any liverpool games this season? you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

example 1. arsenal at anfield. pool playing great football and winning 4-1 with crouch getting the perfect hat-trick

example 2. psv away. pool playing very well and completely controlling the game.

example 3. chelsea at anfield. pool played very well, and completely controlled the game.

that's just 3 off the top of my head.

another defeat for the manc myth that they play the bestest football, and everyone else plays shit football.

You've shot yourself in the foot there a bit mentioning the Chelsea League game at anfield. Didnt the 2 goals originate form long balls? asking because I cant remember. Yes Liverpool were in cntrol that day but I wouldnt say it was entertaining or high on quality.

I'll agree on the other 2 though in case you think I'm winding you up.

[KolaKubes]

he's an unnatural passer though, PLUS he has a natural understanding with Henry.. look out for it, telling ya, he understands Henry's movement perfectly.

Arsenal probably will have to bulk up in midfield ..notice their defensive frailty while at the same time Gilberto Silva has scored double figures..there's balance missing in the centre all right

saying that though when Arsenal are on form there's no stopping them--its like watching two five-a-side- teams overlapping, its class.

plus they're rightly underdogs after this seasons showing...

I would liken Arsenal to a Formula 1 car. You're right, when they get it right there's little enough you can do about it but you wouldn't enter them in a rally though would you?

Fabregas is the perfect example. Absolutely, exquisite technique but I think the very best central midfielders are more well-rounded players. I can't be accused of Utd bias on this one, I've been making the same criticism about Paul Scholes all year. Having that sort of player in the spine of your team means you need other players to cover for his defensive inadequacies. He might be worth it at his very best but I'd personally rather an Alonso, a Gilberto or a Keane.

The perfect example was Barcelona against Liverpool this year. Deco, Xavi, Iniesta. Beautiful on the ball but it left gaping holes and Liverpool could get at Barcelona's shoddy and poorly organised defence. Utd suffered at times as well this year because of Scholes in the same respect.

[jimmy magee]

Are you trying to say it's some kind of beautiful, intended mistake that these people are around the club?

yes, clearly i would have thought.. read the post above again.

Fletcher is pretty rubbish-- only there cos he's scottish

[homer jay]

I saw the Arsenal game at Anfield, you have a point there.

I wouldn't agree with Chelsea at Anfield in the league. Yes, you controlled the game but Chelsea's lack of height at the back was critical.

Liverpool don't play the same style of football as Chelsea but its still very direct and formulaic. Banging it into the corners quickly, maybe bringing an overlapping full back into the game and then cross after cross after cross.

Effective but not effective enough, the league table tells its own story in that respect.

who said anything about it being effective? the famous 'kola has missed the point again' clause will have to used here i think.

But you can go away hailing "another myth defeated" or whatever silliness you're on about if you like. The facts (such as 83 goals scored this season, 123 in all competitions) would tend to support us bumslappers.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z

you change your tune from calling the football liverpool play 'hit and hope nonsense' to arguing about who has scored the most goals this season. wtf??? was it because i just proved you were talking thru your hole a minute ago?

Comparing the conservatism of the Italian game to the hit and hope nonsense that Chelsea and Liverpool served up in that game (and many others this season) is absolute nonsense. They bear no relation to each other apart from the similar lack of goals.

start naming games.

Any game with Crouch starting (why else would you have him on a football team).

example 1. arsenal at anfield. pool playing great football and winning 4-1 with crouch getting the perfect hat-trick

I saw the Arsenal game at Anfield, you have a point there.

well done kola, way to defeat your point there.

[jimmy magee]

Wenger is tripping allright, at least he's not robbing the game of skill

[homer jay]

You've shot yourself in the foot there a bit mentioning the Chelsea League game at anfield. Didnt the 2 goals originate form long balls? asking because I cant remember. Yes Liverpool were in cntrol that day but I wouldnt say it was entertaining or high on quality.

I'll agree on the other 2 though in case you think I'm winding you up.

kuyt's goal came from a long-ish cross (halfway line if memory serves my correctly). but i'm using the game as an example of how well liverpool can play with the ball on the ground, the fact that the goal was scored from a 'long ball' is a side issue. the game against spurs at home was also a very good game of football. as was the west ham game (away) (i actually think this was one of their best footballing displays this season)

ronny, i've said it loads of times here before that liverpool can play shite football, but they can also play some class stuff, something that the bumslappers seem to refuse to admit.

[KolaKubes]

ronny, i've said it loads of times here before that liverpool can play shite football, but they can also play some class stuff, something that the bumslappers seem to refuse to admit.

Right, class football from Liverpool this season. Examples.

I wouldn't claim to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of Liverpool's form over the year. Seen a lot of Chelsea, a lot of Arsenal but not so much of Liverpool. What little I have of the latter hasn't been good. In fact, it's been rather dull.

I'm talking games where Liverpool came near the heights of Utd home and away against Bolton, home to Fulham, away to Spurs, home against Roma, home against Blackburn. You rightly point to Crouch's hat-trick against Arsenal but I remember little else by way of an all-round excellent display defensively and offensively.

[homer jay]

I wouldn't claim to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of Liverpool's form over the year. Seen a lot of Chelsea, a lot of Arsenal but not so much of Liverpool. What little I have of the latter hasn't been good. In fact, it's been rather dull.

well then don't be passing comment on something you know nothing about.

[KolaKubes]

well then don't be passing comment on something you know nothing about.

I said I hadn't seen a lot of Liverpool this season. What I have seen (and we're talking well over double figures in terms of games) has been, shall we say, uninspiring.

I'm sure you must have managed a scorching 20 minutes spell against Wigan or something along the way though?

You're not nearly as good as Benitez' Valencia side for starters.

Now they could play a bit.

[POL]

Kola, you must the biggest fraud on here, you lack of soccer knowledge is astounding at times, you lack to basic ability to analyse the game

[KolaKubes]

Kola, you must the biggest fraud on here, you lack of soccer knowledge is astounding at times, you lack to basic ability to analyse the game

Charity post.

[Sound]

You've shot yourself in the foot there a bit mentioning the Chelsea League game at anfield. Didnt the 2 goals originate form long balls? asking because I cant remember. Yes Liverpool were in cntrol that day but I wouldnt say it was entertaining or high on quality.

I'll agree on the other 2 though in case you think I'm winding you up.

Some long ball alright for Pennant to fire in from 25 yards.

For fucks sake!

[homer jay]

I said I hadn't seen a lot of Liverpool this season. What I have seen (and we're talking well over double figures in terms of games) has been, shall we say, uninspiring.

don't try and squirm your way out of this one. you said liverpool play 'hit and hope nonsense' in 'Any game with Crouch starting (why else would you have him on a football team)'.

I'm sure you must have managed a scorching 20 minutes spell against Wigan or something along the way though?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


You're not nearly as good as Benitez' Valencia side for starters.

Now they could play a bit.

are you sure? i mean, you're admitting you didn't see much of liverpool despite describing how they played in the a load of their games!!! you'd wanna watch what you say.

[KolaKubes]

are you sure? i mean, you're admitting you didn't see much of liverpool despite describing how they played in the a load of their games!!! you'd wanna watch what you say.

Heh, I've watched Liverpool over a dozen times this season. That's more than enough for pronouncements based on the level of "knowledge" on this board. I just wouldn't consider that a big enough "sample" myself to be sure that Liverpool are as (to use your terminology) "Zzzzzzzzz" as they appeared to me in virtually every game I saw them play.

What I've seen of them, I could use many complimentary words such as "spirited", "well-organised", "dogged", "effective", "solid" but I can't think of too many moments off hand that made me sit up and think "bloody hell".

Chelsea, in all fairness, did do that for me a few times this year, not least of which was last Sunday in the second half.

[Professor Piehead]

Heh, I've watched Liverpool over a dozen times this season. That's more than enough for pronouncements based on the level of "knowledge" on this board. I just wouldn't consider that a big enough "sample" myself to be sure that Liverpool are as (to use your terminology) "Zzzzzzzzz" as they appeared to me in virtually every game I saw them play.

What I've seen of them, I could use many complimentary words such as "spirited", "well-organised", "dogged", "effective", "solid" but I can't think of too many moments off hand that made me sit up and think "bloody hell".

Chelsea, in all fairness, did do that for me a few times this year, not least of which was last Sunday in the second half.

Jesus are you still at it, tell me, how many times were you at Old Trafford in the 70's and 80's?

[markinmanc]

I've yet to meet anyone (outside Liverpool fans) looking forward to the CL final. Liverpool will be all about neutralising Milan, outlasting them, not outplaying them.

Liverpool (and Benetiz) are about winning, not playing football.

Benetiz is no better a manager than Jackie Charlton.

[homer jay]

no dice kola. you've been found out.




















if at this point you're still scratching your head, read this thread slowly...
http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/~peoplesr/forums/showthread.php?t=104 632

[homer jay]

I've yet to meet anyone (outside Liverpool fans) looking forward to the CL final. Liverpool will be all about neutralising Milan, outlasting them, not outplaying them.

Liverpool (and Benetiz) are about winning, not playing football.

Benetiz is no better a manager than Jackie Charlton.

jack charlton > rafa > josé > wenger > moyes

[KolaKubes]

I've yet to meet anyone (outside Liverpool fans) looking forward to the CL final. Liverpool will be all about neutralising Milan, outlasting them, not outplaying them.

Liverpool (and Benetiz) are about winning, not playing football.

Benetiz is no better a manager than Jackie Charlton.

All I am looking for is a bit of honesty from the Liverpool fans.


Some interesting stats from this year's Premiership
Liverpool this year:

20 clean sheets
Failed to score in 14 games
55 goals

Utd this year:
15 clean sheets
Failed to score in 2 games
83 goals

Chelsea this year:
21 clean sheets
Failed to score in 3 games
63 goals

I think that says it all about Liverpool's approach.

Why not just embrace it and be honest about it? You're even duller than Chelsea.

It's gotten you to two European Cup finals, after all and it's not like you've got a tradition of champagne football to defend like a Utd or a Barcelona.

[Forsberg]

I must say, I'm actually in agreement with Kola on this one. For the most part this season , Liverpool have played with a certain sense of functionality but there's been little in the way of great exciting football. Obviously there are exceptions , Arsenal at Anfield , PSV away ( I'll take Homers word for it) and the only other memoiry I have of exciting Liverpool play was away at Wigan when Bellamy got a couple and they genuinely played with a bit of attacking flair. Apart from that nothing else stands out.

I accept that Benitez is a great tactician and sets his team up in a way that is really tought to break down against top teams a nd this is the reason for their success in Europe . But it's only on very rare occasions that he releases the shackles and allows them to play good football

[Professor Piehead]

All I am looking for is a bit of honesty from the Liverpool fans.


Some interesting stats from this year's Premiership
Liverpool this year:

20 clean sheets
Failed to score in 14 games
55 goals

Utd this year:
15 clean sheets
Failed to score in 2 games
83 goals

Chelsea this year:
21 clean sheets
Failed to score in 3 games
63 goals

I think that says it all about Liverpool's approach.

Why not just embrace it and be honest about it? You're even duller than Chelsea.

It's gotten you to two European Cup finals, after all and it's not like you've got a tradition of champagne football to defend like a Utd or a Barcelona.

Well Kola, how many times were you at Old Trafford in the 70's and 80's?

[homer jay]

I must say, I'm actually in agreement with Kola on this one. For the most part this season , Liverpool have played with a certain sense of functionality but there's been little in the way of great exciting football. Obviously there are exceptions , Arsenal at Anfield , PSV away ( I'll take Homers word for it) and the only other memoiry I have of exciting Liverpool play was away at Wigan when Bellamy got a couple and they genuinely played with a bit of attacking flair. Apart from that nothing else stands out.

I accept that Benitez is a great tactician and sets his team up in a way that is really tought to break down against top teams a nd this is the reason for their success in Europe . But it's only on very rare occasions that he releases the shackles and allows them to play good football

that wigan game was actually quite poor from a liverpool point of view (apart from the score obviously) and i said as much at the time.

ronny, i've said it loads of times here before that liverpool can play shite football, but they can also play some class stuff, something that the bumslappers seem to refuse to admit.

this pretty much sums up the point i was making, and is a good responce to your point. kola missed the point or decided to do a fitzy and move the goal posts. either way he was talking thru his hole.

[Forsberg]

that wigan game was actually quite poor from a liverpool point of view (apart from the score obviously) and i said as much at the time.



this pretty much sums up the point i was making, and is a good responce to your point. kola missed the point or decided to do a fitzy and move the goal posts. either way he was talking thru his hole.


Fair enough... but would you accept that , overall, Liverpool aren't one of the more exciting teams in the league to watch? and that , for the most part , the brand of football they play isn't very attractive?

BTW.. this isn't an Evertonian trying to get dig at our local rivals ;)

[Sound]

I've yet to meet anyone (outside Liverpool fans) looking forward to the CL final. Liverpool will be all about neutralising Milan, outlasting them, not outplaying them.

Liverpool (and Benetiz) are about winning, not playing football.

Benetiz is no better a manager than Jackie Charlton.

Yeah Liverpool have been in lots of dull finals lately. Istanbul, FA Cup, Uefa Cup.

Ya fuckin' spa.

[Sound]

All I am looking for is a bit of honesty from the Liverpool fans.


Some interesting stats from this year's Premiership
Liverpool this year:

20 clean sheets
Failed to score in 14 games
55 goals

Utd this year:
15 clean sheets
Failed to score in 2 games
83 goals

Chelsea this year:
21 clean sheets
Failed to score in 3 games
63 goals

I think that says it all about Liverpool's approach.

Why not just embrace it and be honest about it? You're even duller than Chelsea.

It's gotten you to two European Cup finals, after all and it's not like you've got a tradition of champagne football to defend like a Utd or a Barcelona.

Has anyone ever claimed than Liverpool score more goals than Utd? Or play more exciting football. In fact, if you're vag wasn't so sandy about this you'd have seen me acknowledge as such.

And as you clearly dont care whether I acknowledge it or not- what is it that you want? Because I cant undo the game against Milan or Liverpool's against Chelsea- no matter how much ye spit yer collective dummy about it.

And I thought a scholar of the game such as yerself (!) would take any comments from Valdano and his abortion of a clubs attempts to buy football greatness with the contempt it deserves? It's all very well for the Galacticos to harp on about the beautiful game when they've been able to fiddle their way out of financial difficulty since time immemorial- or had you conveniently forgotten that as well.

[homer jay]

Fair enough... but would you accept that , overall, Liverpool aren't one of the more exciting teams in the league to watch? and that , for the most part , the brand of football they play isn't very attractive?

BTW.. this isn't an Evertonian trying to get dig at our local rivals ;)

as a pool follower, i'm not particularly bothered whether other people find them entertaining. but, for example, it does become annoying when you get the likes of dunphy basing their whole view of the way liverpool play just from watching the second half of the barcelona game at anfield, when yes, i'd fully agree they were absolutely woeful, but that's not the be-all and end-all of their play. it just reinforces the media induced blanket belief that liverpool play dire football as perpetuated by kola above, who then admits he hadn't seen that much of them.

yeah, obviously i'd love to see them play one touch football like arsenal, and one of the things that bugs me is the way they can sometimes play with crouch up front. but trust me they do play outstandingly well at times.

[markinmanc]

Yeah Liverpool have been in lots of dull finals lately. Istanbul, FA Cup, Uefa Cup.

Ya fuckin' spa.

Aaah, the usual reasoned debate from a Liverpool fan...:rolleyes:

[KolaKubes]

as a pool follower, i'm not particularly bothered whether other people find them entertaining. but, for example, it does become annoying when you get the likes of dunphy basing their whole view of the way liverpool play just from watching the second half of the barcelona game at anfield, when yes, i'd fully agree they were absolutely woeful, but that's not the be-all and end-all of their play. it just reinforces the media induced blanket belief that liverpool play dire football as perpetuated by kola above, who then admits he hadn't seen that much of them.

yeah, obviously i'd love to see them play one touch football like arsenal, and one of the things that bugs me is the way they can sometimes play with crouch up front. but trust me they do play outstandingly well at times.

They play outstandingly well a lot of the time.

It just depends what you mean by that.

[KolaKubes]

Aaah, the usual reasoned debate from a Liverpool fan...:rolleyes:

No, you're getting them all wrong. They are "reasoned and objective, not prone to the red-tinted specs of others". Isn't it clear?

[Forsberg]

as a pool follower, i'm not particularly bothered whether other people find them entertaining. but, for example, it does become annoying when you get the likes of dunphy basing their whole view of the way liverpool play just from watching the second half of the barcelona game at anfield, when yes, i'd fully agree they were absolutely woeful, but that's not the be-all and end-all of their play. it just reinforces the media induced blanket belief that liverpool play dire football as perpetuated by kola above, who then admits he hadn't seen that much of them.

yeah, obviously i'd love to see them play one touch football like arsenal, and one of the things that bugs me is the way they can sometimes play with crouch up front. but trust me they do play outstandingly well at times.


Nice paradox there

[homer jay]

yis know what i meant.

[KolaKubes]

Pool fans are like the doting mothers of a really really ugly baby. Their team will always be beautiful in their eyes.

Even Crouchy.

Though have you seen your wan? The chancer.

[homer jay]

too late kola...








pwned

[RonnyB]

Sound I was making the point about Pennant's goal coming from a long ball via a knock down or clearance. I wasn't slating the quality of execution and I jumped up & celebrated it for obvious reasons.

[STEVIEG]

Has anyone ever claimed than Liverpool score more goals than Utd?

Pol did:)

But he doesn't count as he quite clearly clueless

[Superior]

I wouldn't go out of my way to watch Liverpool or Chelsea unless they were playing my team. Both of them are pretty boring and when they play each other it's usually awful. In fact it's possibly the worst possible game I can think of. Unless maybe Bolton are involved.

[KolaKubes]

I wouldn't go out of my way to watch Liverpool or Chelsea unless they were playing my team. Both of them are pretty boring and when they play each other it's usually awful. In fact it's possibly the worst possible game I can think of. Unless maybe Bolton are involved.

Who are worth watching?

Outside the obvious, I've a soft spot for Spurs, Everton, Villa and Newcastle. Big clubs, good crowds, half decent football.

[STEVIEG]

Who are worth watching?

Outside the obvious, I've a soft spot for Spurs, Everton, Villa and Newcastle. Big clubs, good crowds, half decent football.

Arsenal, United and Spurs are my favs in England but i'd watch anything really

I enjoyed the tension of Liverpool v Chelsea last week but as a spectacle it wasn't all that-still good to watch though, and beter than the soaps:)

[Superior]

Who are worth watching?

Outside the obvious, I've a soft spot for Spurs, Everton, Villa and Newcastle. Big clubs, good crowds, half decent football.

Arsenal. I'd even watch them if they played bad, but I think they're the best team to watch. Maybe not if you're a fan though.

Much as I dislike it I think Spurs are quite easy on the eye. Man Utd, Everton, Reading, Portsmouth...

[Sound]

Aaah, the usual reasoned debate from a Liverpool fan...:rolleyes:

I thought that pointing out that the last couple of finals that Liverpool have participated had been dramatic affairs was pretty reasonable. Nothing wrong with throwing in some facts every now and then.

Do you really expect reasoned debate when you compare Rafa to Charlton?

The spa bit was a bonus.

[Sound]

No, you're getting them all wrong. They are "reasoned and objective, not prone to the red-tinted specs of others". Isn't it clear?

Speaking of reasoned, no comment about Valdano I see? Or about my acknowledgements?

[markinmanc]

I thought that pointing out that the last couple of finals that Liverpool have participated had been dramatic affairs was pretty reasonable. Nothing wrong with throwing in some facts every now and then.

Do you really expect reasoned debate when you compare Rafa to Charlton?

The spa bit was a bonus.


Pre benetiz as a rule.

Spunktowelboy! ;)

[KolaKubes]

Speaking of reasoned, no comment about Valdano I see? Or about my acknowledgements?

You'll not get me lauding Real Madrid. I didn't at the height of the power of the Galacticos, I won't start now. A shitty club who play entertaining football but funded by all manner of messing.

What I don't get, though, is that Liverpool are the most successful football club in England. A great club in many ways and yet there is just absolutely no sign of any commitment to playing football the way it should be played.

Even Arsenal turned over a new leaf.

[Professor Piehead]

You'll not get me lauding Real Madrid. I didn't at the height of the power of the Galacticos, I won't start now. A shitty club who play entertaining football but funded by all manner of messing.

What I don't get, though, is that Liverpool are the most successful football club in England. A great club in many ways and yet there is just absolutely no sign of any commitment to playing football the way it should be played.

Even Arsenal turned over a new leaf.

Ah well, third time lucky....

Kola, how mant times were you at Old Trafford in the 70's and 80's???

[KolaKubes]

Ah well, third time lucky....

Kola, how mant times were you at Old Trafford in the 70's and 80's???

Zero. I was 10 in 1989.

[Professor Piehead]

Zero. I was 10 in 1989.

Mmmmmmmmm and the 90's?

[KolaKubes]

Mmmmmmmmm and the 90's?

Once.

[Coin]

What an awful, pointless thread.

[Professor Piehead]

Once.

As I suspected, GLORY HUNTER.

[KolaKubes]

As I suspected, GLORY HUNTER.

Oh no, I'm outed as an armchair fan. Who'd have thunk it.

[ho chi feen]

ronny, i've said it loads of times here before that liverpool can play shite football, but they can also play some class stuff, something that the bumslappers seem to refuse to admit.

Sorry now HJ, I give credit where it's due and I've credited ye when I've thought fit. You can play good football, but what kills you when you do is a lack of quality in the final third, and a lack of creative spark in midfield. This means lots of unconverted chances, and lots of moves breaking down at an advanced stage. Liverpool's greates asset is their physicality, I imagine Benitez will be looking to remedy things in the final third next season- it's the one thing holding the team back in the league.

[KolaKubes]

Sorry now HJ, I give credit where it's due and I've credited ye when I've thought fit. You can play good football, but what kills you when you do is a lack of quality in the final third, and a lack of creative spark in midfield. This means lots of unconverted chances, and lots of moves breaking down at an advanced stage. Liverpool's greates asset is their physicality, I imagine Benitez will be looking to remedy things in the final third next season- it's the one thing holding the team back in the league.

And I said last season that his problem is to bring that extra edge in the attacking third he'll have to go away, rip up his blueprint and start from scratch.

Not going to happen.

This is a man who played the last hour of the game against Chelsea at Anfield in the league playing counter-attack when Chelsea were there to be slaughtered. If he was serious at the time about making a late surge for the title, he could have inflicted enormous psychological damage at the time but, no, his natural conservatism won out.

Say what you like about Mourinho, he'll take risks when necessary, Benitez won't.

[ho chi feen]

And I said last season that his problem is to bring that extra edge in the attacking third he'll have to go away, rip up his blueprint and start from scratch.

Not going to happen.

This is a man who played the last hour of the game against Chelsea at Anfield in the league playing counter-attack when Chelsea were there to be slaughtered. If he was serious at the time about making a late surge for the title, he could have inflicted enormous psychological damage at the time but, no, his natural conservatism won out.

Say what you like about Mourinho, he'll take risks when necessary, Benitez won't.

Read my posts re Benitez and Aimar on a previos thread (search for 'Tevez' posted by me).

[wat_boy]

Sorry now HJ, I give credit where it's due and I've credited ye when I've thought fit. You can play good football, but what kills you when you do is a lack of quality in the final third, and a lack of creative spark in midfield. This means lots of unconverted chances, and lots of moves breaking down at an advanced stage. Liverpool's greates asset is their physicality, I imagine Benitez will be looking to remedy things in the final third next season- it's the one thing holding the team back in the league.

spot on this and with extra funds to spend in the summer this has to be rafa's top priority and i trust he will bring in the right players to the job.

[homer jay]

Sorry now HJ, I give credit where it's due and I've credited ye when I've thought fit. You can play good football, but what kills you when you do is a lack of quality in the final third, and a lack of creative spark in midfield. This means lots of unconverted chances, and lots of moves breaking down at an advanced stage. Liverpool's greates asset is their physicality, I imagine Benitez will be looking to remedy things in the final third next season- it's the one thing holding the team back in the league.

i wouldn't have put you in the 'bumslappers' bracket ho chi. but if you're asking to be included...;)

good analysis as well by the way.

[lionelhutz]

who said anything about it being effective? the famous 'kola has missed the point again' clause will have to used here i think.



zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z

you change your tune from calling the football liverpool play 'hit and hope nonsense' to arguing about who has scored the most goals this season. wtf??? was it because i just proved you were talking thru your hole a minute ago?











well done kola, way to defeat your point there.

thing with pubes is he cant help himself. langball has nothin to do all day but talk about manbags in the chicks forum and his beloved (formerly bemoaned formerly beloved formerly bemoaned etc) manc utd in this forum. he gets confused, especially now with magee as yet another alter ego

[Sound]

And I said last season that his problem is to bring that extra edge in the attacking third he'll have to go away, rip up his blueprint and start from scratch.

Not going to happen.

This is a man who played the last hour of the game against Chelsea at Anfield in the league playing counter-attack when Chelsea were there to be slaughtered. If he was serious at the time about making a late surge for the title, he could have inflicted enormous psychological damage at the time but, no, his natural conservatism won out.

Say what you like about Mourinho, he'll take risks when necessary, Benitez won't.

No danger of him perhaps buying two players and giving one of them some licence to roam a la Aimar?

No?

None?

[KolaKubes]

No danger of him perhaps buying two players and giving one of them some licence to roam a la Aimar?

No?

None?

It's a zero sum game though. If he puts in an attacking player or two, it's going to impinge upon the defensive quality that's been Liverpool's calling card in the European Cup.

He should do it but will he is the question?

[lionelhutz]

What an awful, pointless thread.

would have been a decent thread but for lube and his various incarnations. think theres some truth to some of what valdano is saying but as the lads were saying on newstalk his own fuckin record at madrid was terrible. its not as clear cut as hes putting it. football is ever evolving, players are getting bigger and stronger and more athletic. its about trying to create a balance. to call benitez's liverpool a long ball team is utter nonsense. this opinion is endorsed by the fact that pubes is going along with it. he inherited a team that needed serious overhaul and like a good manager he started with the basics, sorted the defence and central midfield and seems to be trying to improve the attack with kuyt bellamy gonzalez and pennant. the problem is the attackers haven't delivered enough quality performances. valdano forgets that benitez valencia had a great balance with good defence, solid but mobile central midfield, great wing play and the likes of aimar pulling the strings behind a big man up top.

as for chelsea, ive seen them play some nice football this season but they've dug in and ground out results when they were hit by injuries. they played some awesome football a couple seasons ago with the two wingers. they had the perfect balance of defensive strength and attacking flair. i think ballack in particular upset that balance this season. think SWP should have been given more chances and if robben hadn't been broken for most of the season the football would have been easier on the eye. also jose's porto relied a lot on deco's creativity in the midfield while being solid at the back.

think valdano is trying to be overly controversial in a dumpy sort of way but it aint as simple as that.

[Sound]

It's a zero sum game though. If he puts in an attacking player or two, it's going to impinge upon the defensive quality that's been Liverpool's calling card in the European Cup.

He should do it but will he is the question?

It didn't hurt when he was doing exactly that with Garcia in 05.

[KolaKubes]

It didn't hurt when he was doing exactly that with Garcia in 05.

Now hold up, I'm sure one as enlightened as you could appreciate Garcia's role for Liverpool in that season but I spent many an evening listening to Pool fans complaining about that guy that same season and having to defend him.

[Sound]

Now hold up, I'm sure one as enlightened as you could appreciate Garcia's role for Liverpool in that season but I spent many an evening listening to Pool fans complaining about that guy that same season and having to defend him.

He lost the ball a lot but that's because he was trying the unexpected a lot of the time. It's why Benitez never subbed him and why I never had a problem with him.

Now If you were so enlightened as to appreciate his role then you should also be bright enough to appreciate what Rafa was trying to do and why he's been unable to do the same this season.

[KolaKubes]

He lost the ball a lot but that's because he was trying the unexpected a lot of the time. It's why Benitez never subbed him and why I never had a problem with him.

Now If you were so enlightened as to appreciate his role then you should also be bright enough to appreciate what Rafa was trying to do and why he's been unable to do the same this season.

So why don't you have a couple of players in that mould?

Why has he instead shifted emphasis towards getting 20 crosses in the box on to Peter Crouch or Dirk Kuyt's head?

It's been a step backward, Rafa called that one too and he'll need to reverse it if you're to make up 20 points on Utd and Chelsea.

What did you make of Ferguson's comments on Milan today?

He doesn't seem to be giving you much of a chance. Mind, I also think it sounds like making a few excuses under the guise of magnanimity about Milan's "stupendous" display in the San Siro.

[Sound]

So why don't you have a couple of players in that mould?

Why has he instead shifted emphasis towards getting 20 crosses in the box on to Peter Crouch or Dirk Kuyt's head?

It's been a step backward, Rafa called that one too and he'll need to reverse it if you're to make up 20 points on Utd and Chelsea.

What did you make of Ferguson's comments on Milan today?

He doesn't seem to be giving you much of a chance. Mind, I also think it sounds like making a few excuses under the guise of magnanimity about Milan's "stupendous" display in the San Siro.


Why dont Liverpool have Alves instead of Pennant? Or Simao? Or Villa instead of Kuyt?

Money.

Why do you think every single Liverpool goal comes from a cross when it plainly doesn't? There is an overemphasis on crossing- absolutely. But it's driven by personnel. Is he supposed to give up on getting into the CL final because it's not pretty enough? He's made a damn fine fist of the hand he's been dealt.

As for Fergie's comments- probably something to do with Rafa commenting on how to deal with Ronaldo before the Milan game.

[KolaKubes]

Why dont Liverpool have Alves instead of Pennant? Or Simao? Or Villa instead of Kuyt?

Money.

Why do you think every single Liverpool goal comes from a cross when it plainly doesn't? There is an overemphasis on crossing- absolutely. But it's driven by personnel. Is he supposed to give up on getting into the CL final because it's not pretty enough? He's made a damn fine fist of the hand he's been dealt.

As for Fergie's comments- probably something to do with Rafa commenting on how to deal with Ronaldo before the Milan game.

That's all I was saying.

Although, mind, Utd too suffer from an overemphasis on wing play in the CL away from home as part of some tactical switch.

[jimmy magee]

players are getting bigger and stronger and more athletic.




the African revolution is set in motion.. just think if the Americans warm to the game...

[lionelhutz]

the African revolution is set in motion.. just think if the Americans warm to the game...

unless theres a major overhaul with the rules they wont warm to the game at senior level. its the most popular underage sport apparently. soccermoms use it as cheap childminding for their kids while they shop. maybe becks will change things.

here's a thought. would christy ring be as magical and effective playing hurling today as he was back in the day and playing at the fitness level he had back then?