Official PROC Champions League semi-final thread

[KolaKubes]

I know I speak for the whole board when I wish Utd the very best of luck against Milan tonight. ;)

[Jim Comic]

1-0 (kaka)

[wat_boy]

fucking get in

[Roman Abramovich]

kaka, busting the ronaldo the greatest myth once again

[Roman Abramovich]

personally i think milan could have scored that too early. hope they dont sit back an invite utd on because i reckon utd can be destroyed tonight

[homer jay]

Hope the reds get a couple

hopefully. they've just got one now for starters anyway

[Jim Comic]

kaka, busting the ronaldo the greatest myth once again

i've yet to meet anyone who actually believes in that myth

[Jim Comic]

2-0 (seedorf)

[Jim Comic]

horrendous mistake by heinze

[homer jay]

horrendous mistake by heinze

the keeper didn't cover himself in glory either.

milan are all over them.

[Roman Abramovich]

heh heh heh!!!

anyone wana try a 3-2 scoreline and the match to go to spotters?

[homer jay]

heh heh heh!!!

anyone wana try a 3-2 scoreline and the match to go to spotters?

i wouldn't bet against it.

[3pointplay]

As i said in another thread pool and AC two teams with real histoy in europe.

[MonTheHoops]

Beglin "They need 2 equalisers."

How does that work then Jim?


If Oddo could cross Utd would be in serious trouble.

[Roman Abramovich]

Beglin "They need 2 equalisers."

How does that work then Jim?


If Oddo could cross Utd would be in serious trouble.

the rain getting oddo. hes a class act. problem is with inzag the only one in the box its hard to pick someone out

[Jim Comic]

i hope rafa is watching this VERRRRRRRRY carefully and doing his homework

[MonTheHoops]

the rain getting oddo. hes a class act. problem is with inzag the only one in the box its hard to pick someone out

Oh yeah I know he's a fine player, extremely solid against Celtic, but he's either overcooked or his the first man with all his crosses tonight. Doing serious damage on the right until the final ball. Heinze/Ronaldo not at the races.

[Roman Abramovich]

doing his homework? rafa normally gives milan a 3nil lead...

ronaldo just dived.

[3pointplay]

Half time United should be 4-0 down in this, and george still banging on about 8 years ago.

[Roman Abramovich]

HT........milan ass rapin um.
man utd clueless.

[Sound]

Remember Istanbul and Turin!

FFS.

[Jim Comic]

from the bbc:

2031: HALF-TIME AC Milan 2-0 Manchester United
Hopefully Sir Alex Ferguson put a European plug adaptor in his luggage so he can fire up that hairdryer.

[homer jay]

from the bbc:

2031: HALF-TIME AC Milan 2-0 Manchester United
Hopefully Sir Alex Ferguson put a European plug adaptor in his luggage so he can fire up that hairdryer.

:p

[wat_boy]

listen to dunphy the langer " kaka's almost as good as ronaldo" hope that was tongue in cheek.

[Jim Comic]

Remember Istanbul and Turin!

FFS.

where there's life there's hope, utd don't have a didi hamann on the bench tho'..... or do they?

[STEVIEG]

Re-Wat Boy


Whoosh central.........

He was being sarcastic

[Aphex]

listen to dunphy the langer " kaka's almost as good as ronaldo" hope that was tongue in cheek.

he hates ronaldo...

[Jim Comic]

"How is Ronaldo getting a rating of 7.71 on the BBC 'rate players'? He's been a disgrace so far. The two flicks at the start were just pathetic."
magicmunster on the 606 messageboards

[STEVIEG]

Looks like Liverpool will avoid United in the final

Such an out-pouring of relief here i have rarely seen!

PS-United are terrible and Milan are excellent

Should be about 4 by now


United need a quick goal and a miracle

[Jim Comic]

utd were 2 down to everton last sat and scored 4 in the last 40 mins or so, at this point i don;'t know who i'd rather liverpool might face in the final

[Jim Comic]

Looks like Liverpool will avoid United in the final

Such an out-pouring of relief here i have rarely seen!


you should see the relief in the athens garda station!

[STEVIEG]

you should see the athens garda station!

Heh heh

Classic:):):)

[Roman Abramovich]

listen to dunphy the langer " kaka's almost as good as ronaldo" hope that was tongue in cheek.

legend stuff by eamo

[3pointplay]

you should see the relief in the athens garda station!

lol hahahaha

[Mr.Mister]

Whats the score?

[Roman Abramovich]

gatusso must be the busiest player i ever seen play ball.
i actually think he would be twice the player if he was clever. he must wear himself out chsing everything.

[Jim Comic]

there hasn't been so much relief in athens since that geezer Pheidippides ran the first marathon with the good news from the big fight 26 miles away

wonder if he was an ancestor of gattuso?

[MonTheHoops]

gatusso must be the busiest player i ever seen play ball.
i actually think he would be twice the player if he was clever. he must wear himself out chsing everything.


Advocaat used to play him right back and deemed him not good enough to play for Rangers because of his distribution. Of course, Advocaat has since gone on to bigger and better things.....

[3pointplay]

Looks like united will have to wait another 23 years to win the europen cup.:D

[Roman Abramovich]

look at what kaka just done to vidic. fergie is a fuckin spastic he dont take him off.

[Philby]

utd were 2 down to everton last sat and scored 4 in the last 40 mins or so, at this point i don;'t know who i'd rather liverpool might face in the final

Still Meelan by a mile for me. Losing to them in the final would be no disgrace & I'm sure Rafa will have Masch primed to do a number on Kaka (if that's even possible!)...as I speak he has just burned Vidic, turned him on his ass and just failed to beat VDS...what a player, so elegant on the ball - like a young Steve McManaman ;-)

[Aphex]

how shite is ronaldo at free kicks? seriously like...and so predictable too...

[wayne gayle]

Liverpool would take United in the final I reckon. Milan would beat them though I think. Still, I didn't think they would beat Chelsea so you never know.

[wat_boy]

Re-Wat Boy


Whoosh central.........


ya, hehe

[Professor Piehead]

United 2 nil down hehehehehehehehehehe hehehe....

[Aphex]

United 2 nil down hehehehehehehehehehe hehehe....


get away?

[Roman Abramovich]

ok take vidic off and get a striker on...
play o shea, heinze and brown in a 3 man mid.
utd have to go for it and fergie is looking clueless...

what a failure in europe by fergie once again. i mean they lambasting jose for not getting to the final 3 years running.....

nothing about fergie? big time let down.

[Professor Piehead]

get away?

No, true, not good enough....

[wayne gayle]

Does anyone think Milan's name is on the trophy because they were kicked out of it before the start of the season over the match-fixing scandal?
It certainly seems like it. If they do win it it will make a mockery out of the Italian justice system. They should never have been re-admitted.

[Roman Abramovich]

Does anyone think Milan's name is on the trophy because they were kicked out of it before the start of the season over the match-fixing scandal?
It certainly seems like it. If they do win it it will make a mockery out of the Italian justice system. They should never have been re-admitted.

italian justice system?
ffs

[Philby]

Fergie tends to be more of a fan of placing trust in his quality players to invent something than out-thinking his opposite number tactically. It has worked countless times in the past but it makes him look a bit silly when it doesn't come off.

Man Utd are committing a fair few players forward for the first time in the game. They will create chances but are likely to give Gilardinho and Kaka a sniff or two at the other end. If they can take one it's all over.

[Jim Comic]

if utd get one then the last 15-20 mins will be mental

[Jim Comic]

3-0

[homer jay]

utd still only have to score 2. not all over yet despite what george says

[3pointplay]

Bye bye united as i said they aint a europen team.

[wat_boy]

see if they can score 3 in 6 mins:p

[Professor Piehead]

3-0

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeha, bye bye bawbags.

[Aphex]

these last couple of nights have been superb...

[Jim Comic]

gattuso's doing his steve mcmahon impersonation

[3pointplay]

Oh happy days lads no trebble for the man yoooooou.

[Aphex]

Not only will United get a result in Italy next week, they will beat Milan in their own backyard. I think they've got the Italians running scared - they're not a great team and they know it. - Andy Gray

heh heh heh...

[sunbabe08]

:cry: well this is gonna hurt for a while :cry:

[wat_boy]

andy gray is an eejit

[3pointplay]

:cry: well this is gonna hurt for a while :cry:

Are you a united fan??:D

[thomasr83]

well United just cost me 60 big ones

[Jim Comic]

andy gray is an eejit

that's putting it mildly

[sunbabe08]

Are you a united fan??:D

yes :cry: leave me alone. i feel like that chelsea kid who was bawling last night

[Professor Piehead]

well United just cost me 60 big ones

Never mind, perhaps Jim can fix it for you...

[homer jay]

athens chief of police breaths a sigh of relief

[3pointplay]

yes :cry: leave me alone. i feel like that chelsea kid who was bawling last night

All over Milan want the pool bad, and sunners sorry honey but hahahahahahahahahaha :D

[Jim Comic]

eamo, liamo and gilesio are gonna rip ronaldo a new one after his feeble performance tonight

[3pointplay]

Never mind, perhaps Jim can fix it for you...

I dont think Jim will pay back money on thick shit bets:D

[homer jay]

great performance by milan.

[sunbabe08]

the better team won *sigh*

[STEVIEG]

No complaints

Milan utterly deserved their win

United were very poor, and like Chelsea last night, looked out of gas long before the end

Magnificent performance by Milan

[Jim Comic]

athens chief of police breaths a sigh of relief

the spartan army is told to stand down

[Forsberg]

Milan were superb first half. They really knocked the wind out of United ...al aUnited against Roma at OT.

Seedorf was awesome...MOM by a mile . . As complete a midfield performance as I've seen in ages.

Kaka is the best player on the ball since Zidane . A joy to watch

United didn't seem to have the energy much like Chelsea last night. I think that league battle is taking it's toll on both.

Can't take anything away from Milan though... The performance of the season for me

[homer jay]

unlucky stevie

[STEVIEG]

Seedorf was awesome...MOM by a mile . . As complete a midfield performance as I've seen in ages.


Unreal performance by someone written off by so-called experts here:)

[STEVIEG]

unlucky stevie

They were ya:)


Lucky to lose by only 3 tonight

[Jim Comic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/6616513.stm

[MonTheHoops]

I wont say unlucky Stevie, but commiserations

[STEVIEG]

I wont say unlucky Stevie, but commiserations

Yup

United were torn a new asshole tonight in fairness

these guys showed their class and United woke up too late

[Philby]

Fergie tends to be more of a fan of placing trust in his quality players to invent something than out-thinking his opposite number tactically. It has worked countless times in the past but it makes him look a bit silly when it doesn't come off.

Have to say that questions have to be asked tactically of Ferguson. Not a sniff of any tactical re-shuffle until 13 mins to go. United never got going.

Man Utd are committing a fair few players forward for the first time in the game. They will create chances but are likely to give Gilardinho and Kaka a sniff or two at the other end. If they can take one it's all over.

And they did.

[MonTheHoops]

CL is amazing in fairness.

Only today the validity of the competition is being questioned. Now tonight the best side in perhaps the current best league were torn a new one.

[sunbabe08]

united need a roy keane type player, a player to grab these type of games by the balls, scoles can't rebel against his hair much longer...

[STEVIEG]

CL is amazing in fairness.

Only today the validity of the competition is being questioned. Now tonight the best side in perhaps the current best league were torn a new one.

Cup football

It could easily have went the other way

Roma are better than Milan in the league

[Philby]

No complaints

Milan utterly deserved their win

United were very poor, and like Chelsea last night, looked out of gas long before the end

Magnificent performance by Milan

Fair assessment, hard luck. Still a well above average season even if they don't do the double.

[MonTheHoops]

united need a roy keane type player, a player to grab these type of games by the balls, scoles can't rebel against his hair much longer...

They need a better squad. Scholes is United's best player if you ask me, have always said how much he impresses me. United's first 11 is good but outside that there's nothing.

[STEVIEG]

Still a well above average season even if they don't do the double.

Too right:)

Good luck in the final

I have a feeling the first 25 mins of the 2nd half could have shown Rafa how to do it

Obviously, in a more controlled way than United who were a bit inept and naive

Liverpool will wait till extra time if they have to, but Milan will do well to play that good again

[Jim Comic]

united need a roy keane type player, a player to grab these type of games by the balls.

signor gattuso springs to mind

[STEVIEG]

They need a better squad. Scholes is United's best player if you ask me, have always said how much he impresses me. United's first 11 is good but outside that there's nothing.

Yup they are short a few players the present squad have done well this season under tricky circumstances but they need a couple more

[MonTheHoops]

Yup they are short a few players the present squad have done well this season under tricky circumstances but they need a couple more


And I know you won't agree, but the first thing I'd do with that side is move Rooney out of it and go with 2 out & out strikers

[STEVIEG]

signor gattuso springs to mind

He tried to sign him last summer apparently

Some fucking player maximum respect to him

[Jim Comic]

if milan are given as much space as they were tonight then liverpool are doomed

however, i feel benitez will have learnt a lot from both tonight and the 2005 final

rafa's 3rd european final in 4 years is gonna be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryy yyyyyyyyyyyy interesting

[Jim Comic]

He tried to sign him last summer apparently

Some fucking player maximum respect to him

not the most gifted footballer in the world but all heart, the feckin' ex-hun bastich!!!!!

[STEVIEG]

if milan are given as much space as they were tonight then liverpool are doomed

however, i feel benitez will have learnt a lot from both tonight and the 2005 final

rafa's 3rd european final in 4 years is gonna be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryy yyyyyyyyyyyy interesting

Think Milan may be anxious

They won't want extra time and pens

Could play into Liverpools hands

As always, with Liverpool, whoever scores the first goal is paramount

Obviously 2005 was a major exception but Milan will prob need the first this time too

[daithi81]

Ronaldo is over-rated, have always said it. You know the true greats by the way they react to situations on the big stage, you saw that in Seedorf and Kaka tonight, Ronaldo was nowhere to be seen. All the lad does is try long shots and glory runs, he is the typical player you remember from school who never passed the ball and kept going for glory and on the 20th go he got it right and thinks he is a genius.

Eamon Dunphy: 'Kaka is reality, Ronaldo is fake.'

[Edmund Blackwater]

This is my champs league fantasy football team, it illustrates the way I saw the semis going...

http://i19.tinypic.com/674gw0y.jpg


Gutted I didn't include Seedorf.

[Philby]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070502/capt.xlb11505022042. italy_soccer_champio ns_league_xlb115.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070502/capt.th80605022028.i taly_soccer_champion s_league_th806.jpg

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/getty/8f/fullj.getty-fbl-eur-c1-ac_milan-manchester-united_4_36_20_pm.jp g

[nemesis]

Feeble. Utterly fucking feeble. And to anyone who says that United lost because they were tired or "out of gas": bollocks.

Utd lost because they don't have anything in central midfield, they don't have a second striker, and because Fergie's full of shit when it comes to Europe. The man is tactically inept in European away games and he's been found out time after time after time.

Pitiful. All credit to Milan though. They play beautiful football when Pirlo and Gattusso are on song.

[STEVIEG]

Feeble. Utterly fucking feeble. And to anyone who says that United lost because they were tired or "out of gas": bollocks.

Utd lost because they don't have anything in central midfield, they don't have a second striker, and because Fergie's full of shit when it comes to Europe. The man is tactically inept in European away games and he's been found out time after time after time.



United were well beaten and you are right they needed more in midfield, but thats why he tried to sign an extra midfielder

Thought it was the defense that lost the game though more though

Heinze had a nightmare and Vidic prob came back too soon and was out of sorts

Such are the risks you take

This is the first time they haven't scored in a game since mid December, and I for one, am proud of the team and manager


PS.None of United big players played at all

Giggs, Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes

[nemesis]

United were well beaten and you are right they needed more in midfield, but thats why he tried to sign an extra midfielder

Thought it was the defense that lost the game though more though

Heinze had a nightmare and Vidic prob came back too soon and was out of sorts

Such are the risks you take

This is the first time they haven't scored in a game since mid December, and I for one, am proud of the team and manager

Don't get me wrong, what they've done in the league this season has been superb, especially given that the defence has been shaky since the end of February. But to be honest, United need to show character and commitment against the likes of Milan a hell of a lot more than against the Watfords and Charltons of this world. It's depressing to think of the money and talent that Fergie's had in his hands over the last ten years and he's only got one european cup to show for it.

And when I think of that untalented shower of dippers reaching yet another final... Simple really: Benitez knows what he's doing in Europe. Fergie never has and never will.

[nemesis]

You're right about the defence, btw. We've known for a while that Heinze doesn't give a toss about playing for us any more now that Evra's taken his place, but he took the piss tonight. He looked like he'd rather be anywhere else than playing for Utd against Milan in a European semi-final in front of eighty thousand-ish people.

We don't need that kind of player.

[Sound]

You're right about the defence, btw. We've known for a while that Heinze doesn't give a toss about playing for us any more now that Evra's taken his place, but he took the piss tonight. He looked like he'd rather be anywhere else than playing for Utd against Milan in a European semi-final in front of eighty thousand-ish people.

We don't need that kind of player.

Ah the short memories strike for the once lauded player of the year.

[nemesis]

Ah the short memories strike for the once lauded player of the year.

He's been a shadow of himself since he came back from injury. That much is unarguable.

[KolaKubes]

Hammered tonight.

Milan just tore into them from the off and Utd's response was best summed up by that Ronaldo back heel over the touchline. His worst, most brainless performance all season. It was Benfica away last year all over again. Sad that he spoiled his year like that but c'est la vie.

Hard to pick out the worst Utd player on the night but Heinze was gut wrenchingly awful in the first half. The technical inadequacy I highlighted a little while back was there for everyone to see tonight.

Giggs was brutal. Dear God, was he brutal.

I wouldn't be too hard on Rooney, thought he did alright-ish but one or other of the above duo should have been hauled off early in the second half.

I think the losing of the tie came with the fact that we had three of our first choice back four missing in both legs. There was always blood in the water then. It's hard to reconcile the performance over this tie with that against Roma but you wouldn't have to look too far beyond the loss of Ferdinand. Not that Dunphy et al would ever admit it.

Anyway, bravo Milan, you can only beat what's put in front of you.

HOWEVER, we're again looking at teams who aren't at the races domestically being fresher and beating teams that are this year in the CL.

Might I suggest that Platini's efforts to cut the CL spots to three per country might be desirable?

[thomasr83]

I dont think Jim will pay back money on thick shit bets:D

..wonder if he does anything for thick shit comments?

[Sound]

Hammered tonight.

Milan just tore into them from the off and Utd's response was best summed up by that Ronaldo back heel over the touchline. His worst, most brainless performance all season. It was Benfica away last year all over again. Sad that he spoiled his year like that but c'est la vie.

Hard to pick out the worst Utd player on the night but Heinze was gut wrenchingly awful in the first half. The technical inadequacy I highlighted a little while back was there for everyone to see tonight.

Giggs was brutal. Dear God, was he brutal.

I wouldn't be too hard on Rooney, thought he did alright-ish but one or other of the above duo should have been hauled off early in the second half.

I think the losing of the tie came with the fact that we had three of our first choice back four missing in both legs. There was always blood in the water then. It's hard to reconcile the performance over this tie with that against Roma but you wouldn't have to look too far beyond the loss of Ferdinand. Not that Dunphy et al would ever admit it.

Anyway, bravo Milan, you can only beat what's put in front of you.

HOWEVER, we're again looking at teams who aren't at the races domestically being fresher and beating teams that are this year in the CL.

Might I suggest that Platini's efforts to cut the CL spots to three per country might be desirable?

How Arsene-esque.

[Jim Comic]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A22262726

[MonTheHoops]

Can't wait for all the Liverpool v Man U arguments again for the next year

"6 European Cups"

"When did you win the last title?"

etc etc ad nauseum

And myself & Forsberg trying to get a word in edgeways

[KolaKubes]

How Arsene-esque.

Since 2004, of the eight finalists, five haven't even finished runners up in their domestic league.

Liverpool and Milan have been able to rest how many players over these ties while Chelsea and Utd have been playing cup finals every week in the league.

I would suggest that maybe UEFA might want to re-consider.

[homer jay]

Since 2004, of the eight finalists, five haven't even finished runners up in their domestic league.

Liverpool and Milan have been able to rest how many players over these ties while Chelsea and Utd have been playing cup finals every week in the league.

I would suggest that maybe UEFA might want to re-consider.

too late for all that. i've posted my thoughts on this ages ago. the money is too big, and uefa would face a walkout by the big teams if the allocations were cut. personally i feel it should be the winners of the league and the holders should contest the european cup.

as someone said before (nimic possibly) the CL has been poor as was the world cup. a lot of players are only interested in making money, and this is reflected in poor performances, and crap games. of course there are exceptions. i feel that ultimately it must go back to the old format. there won't be all the bullshit with the securing of a CL place for next season, load of shite tbh. the money really needs to be taken out of the game (sky money, CL money etc.) before it ruins it.

[afeencalleddan]

personally i feel it should be the winners of the league and the holders should contest the european cup.

i feel that ultimately it must go back to the old format. there won't be all the bullshit with the securing of a CL place for next season, load of shite tbh. the money really needs to be taken out of the game (sky money, CL money etc.) before it ruins it.I agree but it's never gonna happen.

[KolaKubes]

too late for all that. i've posted my thoughts on this ages ago. the money is too big, and uefa would face a walkout by the big teams if the allocations were cut. personally i feel it should be the winners of the league and the holders should contest the european cup.

as someone said before (nimic possibly) the CL has been poor as was the world cup. a lot of players are only interested in making money, and this is reflected in poor performances, and crap games. of course there are exceptions. i feel that ultimately it must go back to the old format. there won't be all the bullshit with the securing of a CL place for next season, load of shite tbh. the money really needs to be taken out of the game (sky money, CL money etc.) before it ruins it.

I do think that its fair to have the runners up from the big leagues in alright. Letting in 4th place is ridiculous really, when you think champions from countries in the likes of Eastern Europe have to come through a series of qualifiers.

Its a valid argument regarding the sporting side of things, if the cash is the issue, just give more to the UEFA cup teams. That could become a very good competition with the likes of 3rd and 4th place teams in it.

Even having teams down to 6th or 7th from the Premiership in any sort of European competition is a bit daft.

Less European football and better quality. There's been all too many mundane encounters this year. Utd's group and Lille ties were dreadful in the main, Celtic notwithstanding.

[homer jay]

I do think that its fair to have the runners up from the big leagues in alright. Letting in 4th place is ridiculous really, when you think champions from countries in the likes of Eastern Europe have to come through a series of qualifiers.

Its a valid argument regarding the sporting side of things, if the cash is the issue, just give more to the UEFA cup teams. That could become a very good competition with the likes of 3rd and 4th place teams in it.

Even having teams down to 6th or 7th from the Premiership in any sort of European competition is a bit daft.

Less European football and better quality. There's been all too many mundane encounters this year. Utd's group and Lille ties were dreadful in the main, Celtic notwithstanding.

agreed all the way.

the uefa cup was a great competition, and not so long ago either. in 2001 when liverpool won it (here we go again :) ) they had to beat great teams along the way. getting rid of the cwc bugged me as well. not as good a comp as the uefa cup, but still good.

[KolaKubes]

agreed all the way.

the uefa cup was a great competition, and not so long ago either. in 2001 when liverpool won it (here we go again :) ) they had to beat great teams along the way. getting rid of the cwc bugged me as well. not as good a comp as the uefa cup, but still good.

Boro in the UEFA cup final like, nuff said.

[afeencalleddan]

agreed all the way.

the uefa cup was a great competition, and not so long ago either. in 2001 when liverpool won it (here we go again :) ) they had to beat great teams along the way. getting rid of the cwc bugged me as well. not as good a comp as the uefa cup, but still good.Yeah, I have to say I used to love the 3 competitions with the finals being played over 4 wednesdays in May. Say yes to dilution!!! Let's start a petition... Or maybe not.

[ho chi feen]

I know we played shite and were for too accomodating in defence, but fuck me, that (at least the first 45) was probably as assured and controlled a performance as I've seen in the competition in the last two or three years. Fair enough, their season had really picked up of late but I really didn't think they had that in them. Pool would want to look out because they look like a team on a mission. That said, they won't have the sort of comedy errors that littered out performance over the two legs.

Milan to shade it... just about.

[Jim Comic]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/?jp=MHAUIDSNCWGB

[jimmy magee]

Yup they are short a few players the present squad have done well this season under tricky circumstances but they need a couple more.

In fairness, look at Milano's squad. They've nothing in comparison to Utd in reserve.
I'll take it that Utd's players might be a bit burnt out....



Every time Utd player got the ball, 2 Milan are close by- their positioning as a unit was immaculate with Gattuso keeping the tempo high. At Milan there is a long long history of defensive co-ordination and it shows.

Patience, oh English football lovers, patience. If you are patient you keep the ball and tire out the opposition.. Patience, patience, patience. Fergie realises the value of being patient and Carrick will continue Utd's progress in this field.


The first half tonight was an absolute joy to watch, granted Milan were on form. Its not that Utd were off form--they were NULLIFIED

Tonight, my friends, was a lesson in football.

FORZA ROSSONERI !!!

[afeencalleddan]

Pool would want to look out because they look like a team on a mission.I thought Chelsea looked like a team on a mission at the Mestalla but it's so hard for sides to maintain performance levels in this competition. I would love to see Milan repeating tonight's performance and go on to lift the trophy but I definitely wouldn't take it for granted. It's very hard to make predictions about these games.

Milan are now 4/5 favourites to lift the trophy which is about right based on tonight but I wouldn't risk those odds with somebody else's money. Fair play to those who backed the Pool at 25/1 before the Barca tie. A couple of the lads in work had €20 on and they're sitting pretty now.

[jimmy magee]

in comparison to that muck we witnessed last night, its fair to say if those dire fuckers beat us in the final it will be truly sickening

[Professor Piehead]

in comparison to that muck we witnessed last night, its fair to say if those dire fuckers beat us in the final it will be truly sickening

What, again.

[Professor Piehead]

in comparison to that muck we witnessed last night, its fair to say if those dire fuckers beat us in the final it will be truly sickening

Get your bag ready, again.

[wat_boy]

should of put a few quid on a liverpool/milan final when the media were creaming themselves over chelsea/utd

[Aphex]

I'm delighted how in turned out now actually...I'd much rather liverpool get hammered by milan than to be beaten narrowly by united in the final...I'd vomit for weeks if that happened...

can't wait for the banter in work tomorrow though 8)

[The Black Knight]

I'm delighted at last night results. It's great to see those heartless, over-payed, over-hyped spa's get a kick in their ass. Ronaldo, again, was nowhere to be seen. He’s just a showboat. Rooney, Giggs, Scholes weren't there.

Man Utd were found out to be what they really are last night. Totally out classed by a better team. There were tell-tale signs from the first leg when they only got on top as soon as Milan lost Gattusso, and Maldini.

It was great stuff from Milan, a majestic performance. I'm a Liverpool supporter, but I wouldn't begrudge a true team like Milan the Champions League trophy.

[Jim Comic]

I'm delighted how in turned out now actually...I'd much rather liverpool get hammered by milan than to be beaten narrowly by united in the final...

bizarre comment, are you a utd fan?

[xvis]

Too many United players had an off day, ..Heinze set the tone by being an absolute defensive liability for the first 15 minutes, ..Milan had about 3 chances down that side even before the goal.

Only O'Shea, Fletcher and Rooney stood up to be counted for United. Everyone else was off-form.

Best of luck to Milan in the final!


Overall, I'm not too disappointed, United have re-establishrd themselves in Europe this year and re-established themselves in England. I thought if United would have won the treble this year it would be the team peaking too soon.


...any United fan who wanted Liverpool to win that semi-final the other night wants their head examined....

firstly, Chelsea have been a better side than Liverpool all year and deserved it more, ..and If it was a Chelsea Milan final I could see the likes of Lampard and Drogba being rested in the coming weeks, ..perhaps even rested in the FA cup final as the ECL would take priority. ....all that without even considering the local rivalry.


..anyway, I've work to do so can't enjoy the abu party! ..enjoy the day guys!

[RonnyB]

too late for all that. i've posted my thoughts on this ages ago. the money is too big, and uefa would face a walkout by the big teams if the allocations were cut. personally i feel it should be the winners of the league and the holders should contest the european cup.

as someone said before (nimic possibly) the CL has been poor as was the world cup. a lot of players are only interested in making money, and this is reflected in poor performances, and crap games. of course there are exceptions. i feel that ultimately it must go back to the old format. there won't be all the bullshit with the securing of a CL place for next season, load of shite tbh. the money really needs to be taken out of the game (sky money, CL money etc.) before it ruins it.


Last night I thought the same with regards to the finalists been able to rest their key players at the weekend while the beaten semi-finalists needed to win league games.

My theory would be that any team who have won their domestic title within the last 5 or so years would gain entry. I know that might not be a full proof way of quality (I mean Leeds could have won the league in 2005 & by the time of the 2005 final they were a Championship club with a full season of it under their belts) but it would maybe put some more importance into domestic leagues while also returning to the competitions roots of the 'Champions League'.

I dont begrudge Liverpool their final place (and in fact think they'll win it) but 20 years ago if you said to the Liverpool manager at the time that the team would contest 2 European Cup finals in 3 years while going over 15 years without league success he'd have said you were mad.

I dont think you can return the comp to just champions because then the quality of teams in it would be a lot worse but there should certainly be some adjustments made.

[Sound]

I suppose it would be of no use to point out that Liverpool have had to dispose of three champions of their own countries to get this far?

Thought not.

[Lamps]

I suppose it would be of no use to point out that Liverpool have had to dispose of three champions of their own countries to get this far?

Thought not.

Its not a day for facts Sound, lets see KKK come up with some crazy rationale for this one.

What a fine day

[lionelhutz]

I do think that its fair to have the runners up from the big leagues in alright. Letting in 4th place is ridiculous really, when you think champions from countries in the likes of Eastern Europe have to come through a series of qualifiers.

Its a valid argument regarding the sporting side of things, if the cash is the issue, just give more to the UEFA cup teams. That could become a very good competition with the likes of 3rd and 4th place teams in it.

Even having teams down to 6th or 7th from the Premiership in any sort of European competition is a bit daft.

Less European football and better quality. There's been all too many mundane encounters this year. Utd's group and Lille ties were dreadful in the main, Celtic notwithstanding.

heh heh heh. sounds like sour grapes to me.

tremendous professional performance by milan. ball retention was immaculate apart from a 15 min spell in the second half where utd got back into it. clinical finishing. nesta, gattuso and obviously kaka stood out. even ambrosini had a great game and ive not much time for him. you cant just put it down to the manc defence either, ronaldo was awful, scholes and giggs nowhere, rooney tried at least but didn't get a sniff. really classy performance by milan. don't think the final will be a great spectacle but then again i didn't think that 2 years ago either

[Lamps]

Kola thinks its fair to let in 2nd place teams in order to validate 99.

Just who do you think you are dealing with?

We can spot a sleveen like you the moment you walk in the door.

I'd say the old bar in UCC was a quiet place last night

[xvis]

I suppose it would be of no use to point out that Liverpool have had to dispose of three champions of their own countries to get this far?

Thought not.


Those three sides have established their credentials by doing the business over the run of a league campaign, ..and we know Liverpool have beaten them over three cup-ties.


...you don't address the point that Liverpool's squad haven't endured the stresses of a league winning campaign, and are somewhat fresher.



***

getting back to the format, I've felt that when expansion took place to bring in 2nd placed sides and then 3rd and 4th, that the entry criteria should have followed with as well as finishing in 2nd, or 3rd in the stronger leagues, that the side would have to have been champions in the previous 3 seasons, ...and are as such, still 'a champion team'. ...much in line with RonnyB's, but a bit stricter.


..it is the ultimate aim of the CL to produce the best team in Europe, and it will embarrass Uefa somewhat if LFC pull off number six, ..as this will clearly not be the case.
Liverpool are clearly not in the best two teams in their own country, ...and have not been for some time.

[RonnyB]

Well the other method I suggested going back a bit would be when the 32 teams are finalised after the qualifiers why not have a knockout round before the group phase like the way its done in the Uefa Cup?

Seed the teams in terms of success (as is already done) and draw the top 16 against the teams ranked 17-32. Have 2 legged ties & then those who are successful should go into an open pot to draw 4 groups of 4. This has the potential to give us some cracking group games (something of a rareity nowadays).

As is the norm have 2 teams from each group go into the 1/4 final draw and so on as is done so now.

Wont happen because the fact the number of groups are halved will lead to less games therefore less money but my opinion is that the Champions League should be about quality not quantity.

Imagine 4 groups featuring

Liverpool
Ac Milan
Chelsea
Man Utd

PSV
Bayern Munich
Valencia
Roma

Barca
Celtic
Porto
Lille

Arsenal
Real Madrid
Inter
Lyon

I think we would have had a much better competition.

[KolaKubes]

I suppose it would be of no use to point out that Liverpool have had to dispose of three champions of their own countries to get this far?

Thought not.

All three of which were still involved in a domestic title race?

This argument won't work with Milan in the final.

If ye beat them, fair play.

http://www.peoplesrepublico fcork.com/forums/showthread.php?p=140 8366#post1408366
I disagree. Barring a 2005 dollop of good fortune, this team is not good enough to win an EC. If we'd signed hargreaves, we had a chance.

Having to play a three man midfield last night cost us almost as badly as the scratch back four. Wouldn't have been necessary if we'd secured Hargreaves signing in the summer but c'est la vie.

[Sound]

Those three sides have established their credentials by doing the business over the run of a league campaign, ..and we know Liverpool have beaten them over three cup-ties.


...you don't address the point that Liverpool's squad haven't endured the stresses of a league winning campaign, and are somewhat fresher.



***

getting back to the format, I've felt that when expansion took place to bring in 2nd placed sides and then 3rd and 4th, that the entry criteria should have followed with as well as finishing in 2nd, or 3rd in the stronger leagues, that the side would have to have been champions in the previous 3 seasons, ...and are as such, still 'a champion team'. ...much in line with RonnyB's, but a bit stricter.


..it is the ultimate aim of the CL to produce the best team in Europe, and it will embarrass Uefa somewhat if LFC pull off number six, ..as this will clearly not be the case.
Liverpool are clearly not in the best two teams in their own country, ...and have not been for some time.


I wasn't aware that Liverpool played less games in the league than the rest.

Silly me.

[STEVIEG]

I'll be honest

I don't have a major problem with the format

As far as changes are i don't think it's gonna happen ($$$$$£££££)



I think it's a Cup Comp and anything can happen

Liverpool could easily have lost by another at Anfield to Barca but they could have beaten them 4-0 too and deserved to progress

Chelsea should have tonked them at the Bridge but Liverpool were much better than the blues at Anfield

Liverpool deserved that tie

United's dodgy defensive situation looked set to come back to haunt them once they got injuries and though they got away with at Everton a really top European side made them pay last night

Overall, Milan well deserved to get there but it's Cup Football

Even at full strength United could have lost and i think Milan were worthy winners

Bar a few curious refering decisions Celtic coud have knocked them out previously and i thought they were there for the taking late in the game against Munich

Sure, the format favours those not firing domestically, but i don't think it's a major issue



Whoever gets to the final still deserves it IMO

One of these teams wil have to lose the game and explaining to their supporters why they are about 20 points of the title race

It's a gamble and whatever team suceeds, be they Milan or Liverpool, deserves to be Champpions of Europe

[RonnyB]

I wasn't aware that Liverpool played less games in the league than the rest.

Silly me.

Thats fair enough but its obviously an advantage Sound to be able to rest 8 or 9 players for a league game seeing as what ye achieve league wise at the seasons end cannot change (barring financial benefits).

I put it to you this way, if Liverpool were in the title race Benetiz would have played Gerrard, Carra & co. last Saturday.

[KolaKubes]

Well the other method I suggested going back a bit would be when the 32 teams are finalised after the qualifiers why not have a knockout round before the group phase like the way its done in the Uefa Cup?

Seed the teams in terms of success (as is already done) and draw the top 16 against the teams ranked 17-32. Have 2 legged ties & then those who are successful should go into an open pot to draw 4 groups of 4. This has the potential to give us some cracking group games (something of a rareity nowadays).

As is the norm have 2 teams from each group go into the 1/4 final draw and so on as is done so now.

Wont happen because the fact the number of groups are halved will lead to less games therefore less money but my opinion is that the Champions League should be about quality not quantity.

Imagine 4 groups featuring

Liverpool
Ac Milan
Chelsea
Man Utd

PSV
Bayern Munich
Valencia
Roma

Barca
Celtic
Porto
Lille

Arsenal
Real Madrid
Inter
Lyon

I think we would have had a much better competition.

They should move the group stage to the second round. Make everyone bar the champions from Italy, Spain, England, Germany and France and the holders play in a first round knockout stage. Would start the competition off with a bang rather than the whimper it currently does. Possibility of a few notable victims and a big tie or two. Better quality games, bigger gates and better atmosphere for the group stages afterwards.


The cash side of things shouldn't be a problem, you could still hand out the same cash to everyone in the first round that you currently do. UEFA cup would then be a sort of top notch plate competition for everyone who gets knocked out at that stage plus the domestic cup winners.

[RonnyB]

They should move the group stage to the second round. Make everyone bar the champions from Italy, Spain, England, Germany and France and the holders play in a first round knockout stage. Would start the competition off with a bang rather than the whimper it currently does. Possibility of a few notable victims and a big tie or two. Better quality games, bigger gates and better atmosphere for the group stages afterwards.


The cash side of things shouldn't be a problem, you could still hand out the same cash to everyone in the first round that you currently do. UEFA cup would then be a sort of top notch plate competition for everyone who gets knocked out at that stage plus the domestic cup winners.

Similar to my suggestion but I'd have all these Champions in the 1st round as well. By being Champions of their country they avoid the preliminaries anyway so playing a 2-legged 1st round tie shouldnt be beyond them.

[Sound]

Thats fair enough but its obviously an advantage Sound to be able to rest 8 or 9 players for a league game seeing as what ye achieve league wise at the seasons end cannot change (barring financial benefits).

I put it to you this way, if Liverpool were in the title race Benetiz would have played Gerrard, Carra & co. last Saturday.

Like the way Chelsea played Drogba and Utd played Ronaldo their respective players of the year last Saturday?

In fairness lads, wanting to change the rules the day after ye go out of the comp is tiny time shite and ye should know better.

[KolaKubes]

Similar to my suggestion but I'd have all these Champions in the 1st round as well. By being Champions of their country they avoid the preliminaries anyway so playing a 2-legged 1st round tie shouldnt be beyond them.

I think it would weaken the league section too much not to have the champions of the main leagues there so would disagree with you on that one.

[Roman Abramovich]

Have to say that questions have to be asked tactically of Ferguson. Not a sniff of any tactical re-shuffle until 13 mins to go. United never got going.



And they did.

i agree..............a nyone in their right mind would have taken vidic off before oshea. what i couldnt understand was hamilton. 13 mins to go utd need only two goals....two goals....two goals.....12 minutes to go and 3nil or whatever it was. Thats it, game over. utd are out.

they still only needed 2 goals george ya moron.

[STEVIEG]

Like the way Chelsea played Drogba and Utd played Ronaldo their respective players of the year last Saturday?

In fairness lads, wanting to change the rules the day after ye go out of the comp is tiny time shite and ye should know better.

I totally agree with ya about the comp changes


Ronaldo took a slight knock in training last week and was on the bench for that reason btw

[Roman Abramovich]

Might I suggest that Platini's efforts to cut the CL spots to three per country might be desirable?

then liverpool and ac would still have been in this years comp

[STEVIEG]

i agree..............a nyone in their right mind would have taken vidic off before oshea. what i couldnt understand was hamilton. 13 mins to go utd need only two goals....two goals....two goals.....12 minutes to go and 3nil or whatever it was. Thats it, game over. utd are out.

they still only needed 2 goals george ya moron.

Yup, the third goal didn't change too much

That said, for the first time this season, United NEVER really looked like scoring, as the manager mentioned

They deserved to lose and I have no complaints whatsoever about the result

[lionelhutz]

Kola thinks its fair to let in 2nd place teams in order to validate 99.



the poor boy is mixed up alright

[RonnyB]

Like the way Chelsea played Drogba and Utd played Ronaldo their respective players of the year last Saturday?

In fairness lads, wanting to change the rules the day after ye go out of the comp is tiny time shite and ye should know better.

Ronaldo didnt start because of injury. Drogba still played 45 mins for Chelsea. Jose thought he could get away without him for a weakened Bolton team.

As for rule changes it nothing to do with the fact United were knocked out. My main gripe is the lack of quality in the competition overall. Too many games, too little quality.

[Roman Abramovich]

Yup, the third goal didn't change too much

That said, for the first time this season, United NEVER really looked like scoring, as the manager mentioned

They deserved to lose and I have no complaints whatsoever about the result

i cant believe the pettyness of people thinking theirs a problem with the champions league format. Its fuckin great. Last season the two best teams in europe made the final. The season before the best team and the pool made it.
This season the a better pool team and slightly weaker milan team have made the final.

Chelsea and Man utd got knocked out because they arent good enough. Simple as. Its why arsenal went out to psv. Barca went out to the pool.
Just because your consitent throughout the year doesn mean you deserve a place in the final. I think this year the champions league was brilliant. I think the format is brilliant and the teams are billiant. If your good enough youll win it. I dont buy this tired crap.

People were righting off this milan team and i said it as soon as the draw was made. Milan werent to be taken lightly.

This year the league was a bonus. Well done. But yet again fergie fails in europe. I mean talk about underachieving. Hes had the biggest budget in england for the last 15 years. Hes spent the most up to chelsea coming in and has only made the final once. Thats bad......

there isnt a snowballs chance in hell the pool will win the champions league. Id prefer to bet a grand on chelsea winning the league than the pool winning the champions league.

Watch a 3nil comeback be well and truly put to bed.

[RonnyB]

i cant believe the pettyness of people thinking theirs a problem with the champions league format. Its fuckin great. Last season the two best teams in europe made the final. The season before the best team and the pool made it.
This season the a better pool team and slightly weaker milan team have made the final.

Chelsea and Man utd got knocked out because they arent good enough. Simple as. Its why arsenal went out to psv. Barca went out to the pool.
Just because your consitent throughout the year doesn mean you deserve a place in the final. I think this year the champions league was brilliant. I think the format is brilliant and the teams are billiant. If your good enough youll win it. I dont buy this tired crap.

People were righting off this milan team and i said it as soon as the draw was made. Milan werent to be taken lightly.

This year the league was a bonus. Well done. But yet again fergie fails in europe. I mean talk about underachieving. Hes had the biggest budget in england for the last 15 years. Hes spent the most up to chelsea coming in and has only made the final once. Thats bad......

there isnt a snowballs chance in hell the pool will win the champions league. Id prefer to bet a grand on chelsea winning the league than the pool winning the champions league.

Watch a 3nil comeback be well and truly put to bed.

I agree with most of that. But the reason I'd like to change is I'd love to see the group stage more competitive. This year the only group games to look forward to on a high quality scale were Chelsea vs Barca.

Other than that I have no problems with the comp.

[KolaKubes]

then liverpool and ac would still have been in this years comp

You're missing my point Roman. It's not , it's that teams who aren't at the races domestically can focus their efforts on the European Cup to great effect without running the serious risk of failing to qualify for the following year's competition.

Like it or not, Liverpool and Milan had a major advantage over their opponents in this year's semis because of their failures domestically. That isn't really what they had in mind when they were dreaming up their "elite" European football competition, either in its original inception or the Champions League.

Milan rested [B]nine of the starting XI going into the first leg at Old Trafford. The other two played only 60 minutes. Liverpool similarly were able to rest a lot of their players. Chelsea attempted to do it at the weekend and it might have cost them their title. All it cost Liverpool were points in the meaningless "race" for third place.

That both distorts the European Cup and undermines the domestic competitions which UEFA are supposed to have as their priority.

[STEVIEG]

People were righting off this milan team and i said it as soon as the draw was made. Milan werent to be taken lightly.


who though?

Milan are class and have consistently been the best team in Europe since Madrids Galacticos have petered out

[STEVIEG]

i

Chelsea and Man utd got knocked out because they arent good enough. Simple as. Its why arsenal went out to psv. Barca went out to the pool.
Just because your consitent throughout the year doesn mean you deserve a place in the final. I think this year the champions league was brilliant. I think the format is brilliant and the teams are billiant. If your good enough youll .

agreed

[Roman Abramovich]

You're missing my point Roman. It's not , it's that teams who aren't at the races domestically can focus their efforts on the European Cup to great effect without running the serious risk of failing to qualify for the following year's competition.

Like it or not, Liverpool and Milan had a major advantage over their opponents in this year's semis because of their failures domestically. That isn't really what they had in mind when they were dreaming up their "elite" European football competition, either in its original inception or the Champions League.

Milan rested [B]nine of the starting XI going into the first leg at Old Trafford. The other two played only 60 minutes. Liverpool similarly were able to rest a lot of their players. Chelsea attempted to do it at the weekend and it might have cost them their title. All it cost Liverpool were points in the meaningless "race" for third place.

That both distorts the European Cup and undermines the domestic competitions which UEFA are supposed to have as their priority.

ok so youd prefer to see a fla'd utd last night versus say a fla'd inter....

[KolaKubes]

i cant believe the pettyness of people thinking theirs a problem with the champions league format. Its fuckin great. Last season the two best teams in europe made the final. The season before the best team and the pool made it.
This season the a better pool team and slightly weaker milan team have made the final.

Chelsea and Man utd got knocked out because they arent good enough. Simple as. Its why arsenal went out to psv. Barca went out to the pool.
Just because your consitent throughout the year doesn mean you deserve a place in the final. I think this year the champions league was brilliant. I think the format is brilliant and the teams are billiant. If your good enough youll win it. I dont buy this tired crap.

People were righting off this milan team and i said it as soon as the draw was made. Milan werent to be taken lightly.

This year the league was a bonus. Well done. But yet again fergie fails in europe. I mean talk about underachieving. Hes had the biggest budget in england for the last 15 years. Hes spent the most up to chelsea coming in and has only made the final once. Thats bad......

there isnt a snowballs chance in hell the pool will win the champions league. Id prefer to bet a grand on chelsea winning the league than the pool winning the champions league.

Watch a 3nil comeback be well and truly put to bed.

Hilarious. But even I wouldn't claim that PSV were better than Arsenal. Sheesh.

I would criticise Ferguson for being unable to kill a game with a goal lead the way a Benitez or a Mourinho can but the budget thing is a red herring.

Case in point, since Benitez arrived at Anfield in 2004, his net spending on transfers is £43.5m.

Ferguson's in the same period?

£41m

Red Herring #2 Arsenal are doing things on a shoestring.

Wage bill isn't much less than Utd's, notwithstanding the utterly fucking dodgy tax evasion Arsenal were getting up to. £12m fine from the exchequer wasn't it? While most of Wenger's "brilliant" young signings are just the result of exploiting loopholes in poaching regulations between European clubs. "Spotting" Fabregas, don't make me laugh. In any case, Barcelona are now looking for talks with Arsenal et al about this and I believe UEFA slapped Arsenal with a suspended transfer ban over the Flamini affair?

Anyone trying to pick holes in Fergie's record is on a hiding to nothing.

[Lamps]

Case in point, since Benitez arrived at Anfield in 2004, his net spending on transfers is £43.5m.

Ferguson's in the same period?

£41m



Prove this please. Names players in and out.

Do you include Cisse as a Benitez signing?

[Lamps]

Red Herring #2 Arsenal are doing things on a shoestring.

Wage bill isn't much less than Utd's, notwithstanding the utterly fucking dodgy tax evasion Arsenal were getting up to. £12m fine from the exchequer wasn't it? .

Give me the wage bills please and while you're at it the net spends??

Lets see this KKK, the forum awaits

[Roman Abramovich]

Hilarious. But even I wouldn't claim that PSV were better than Arsenal. Sheesh.

I would criticise Ferguson for being unable to kill a game with a goal lead the way a Benitez or a Mourinho can but the budget thing is a red herring.

Case in point, since Benitez arrived at Anfield in 2004, his net spending on transfers is £43.5m.

Ferguson's in the same period?

£41m

Red Herring #2 Arsenal are doing things on a shoestring.

Wage bill isn't much less than Utd's, notwithstanding the utterly fucking dodgy tax evasion Arsenal were getting up to. £12m fine from the exchequer wasn't it? While most of Wenger's "brilliant" young signings are just the result of exploiting loopholes in poaching regulations between European clubs. "Spotting" Fabregas, don't make me laugh. In any case, Barcelona are now looking for talks with Arsenal et al about this and I believe UEFA slapped Arsenal with a suspended transfer ban over the Flamini affair?

Anyone trying to pick holes in Fergie's record is on a hiding to nothing.

barca looking for talks? heh heh heh. Why did arsenal give van bronchurst to barca? Show me where barca are looking for talks.

also show me utds squad when benitez took over and fergies. I mean if they both only spent 40ish million.......

and utd are proven tapper uppers, their players who got tapped up even write it in their books and get sold and what do the authorities do? nothing....

and show me where uefa gave arsenal a transfer ban? or even a suspended one? this is something you like to post regulary.

[KolaKubes]

ok so youd prefer to see a fla'd utd last night versus say a fla'd inter....

Is it not a bit more of a level playing field than the current set-up?

Five out of the last eight finalists didn't even finish runners up in their domestic league. How many of them probably still got into Europe coasting in third or fourth though?

If you look at the fiasco surrounding UEFA trying to find a place for Liverpool in 2005, it's clear they never really considered that the winners of their "elite" competition could be struggling so badly domestically.

I mean, like it or not, it's a cup competition and if you put in the very good sides that are knocking around the major leagues just off the top slots, these fresh and focused teams have every chance of making it right through to the latter stages of the competition.

Presumably, UEFA probably originally envisaged that there'd be far fewer of these teams making it out of the group stages to start with but they hadn't considered how the concentration of playing talent in the major leagues has meant that the domestic champions from most of the minor leagues around Europe aren't in the same class as your Liverpools, your Romas, your Valencias.

I was initially rather sceptical about Platini's plans to get rid of the fourth spot for the big leagues but I've come around in favour of it now. Financially, it could be risky for Utd with our debt and the necessity of CL qualification every year but from a sporting point of view its the only fair way to set up the competition. Both to ensure the integrity of the domestic competitions and to get more teams from the likes of Eastern Europe involved at the business end of the competition.

[STEVIEG]

Financially, it could be risky for Utd with our debt and the necessity of CL qualification every year .

How though?

Do you really think United could ever finish outisde the top 3?

Even in the next couple of years

When was the last time that happened?

[Roman Abramovich]

Is it not a bit more of a level playing field than the current set-up.

what happens then if you have utd as league winners and inter as league winners.....but inter are 4th the following year.

the competition would be poorer. face it.

[Roman Abramovich]

How though?

Do you really think United could ever finish outisde the top 3?

Even in the next couple of years

When was the last time that happened?

when was the last time it happened to arsenal up to last year?
it happens. and with neville, scholes, giggs, van der sar, very important players to utd, with their best years behind them then soon unless theirs big investment.

[RonnyB]

when was the last time it happened to arsenal up to last year?
it happens. and with neville, scholes, giggs, van der sar, very important players to utd, with their best years behind them then soon unless theirs big investment.

I see the point you're making but United have lost players in the past & have still (comfortably) been a top 3 team.

With the 4 guys you mention, we hope Foster can replace VDS eventually & Simpson seems to be doing really well at Sunderland. Scholes has been a major player for United in the Prem but against the big sides in European games (especially away he's been found wanting).

A giggs replacement is needed also but if as expected Fergie signs Hargreaves & a striker then next years priorities would probably be replacements for those 2.

[STEVIEG]

when was the last time it happened to arsenal up to last year?
it happens. and with neville, scholes, giggs, van der sar, very important players to utd, with their best years behind them then soon unless theirs big investment.

Hasn't happened United

Heard it all before

In fact i've been listening to the same arguments since about 1995
When united start finishing 4th then people can start talking about the end of the Fergie era.....

It's rare they finish 3rd not to mention 4th

[KolaKubes]

Open to correction but from what I can glean from t'INTERNET and memory, these were figures I came up with earlier in the week.

Rafa tactical genius

In
Luis Garcia £6m
Xabi Alonso £10.5m
Peter Crouch £7m
Sissoko £4.5m
Reina £6m
Agger £5.8m
Fowler -
Padelli -
Insua £1m
Brouwer -
Gonzalez £4.5m
Paletta £1m
Aurelio -
Anderson -
El Zhar -
Pennant £6.7m
Bellamy £6.5m

Out
Owen £16m
Cissé -
Hamann -

Fergie Ginsoak

In
Rooney £26m
Heinze £7m
Smith £7m
VDS £2m
Park £4m
Vidic £7.2m
Evra £5.5m
Carrick £16m

Out
Van Nistelrooy £10.2m
Djemba-Djemba £3.5m
Kleberson £2.5m
Obi Mikel £12m
Butt £2m
Forlan £3m
Spector £0.5m

Obviously, the Rooney and Carrick fees are guesstimates of how much they'll ultimately cost given the £10m and £4m that are performance related and based on Utd winning all sorts of trophies.

I've already noticed I've left out a raft of youngsters we sold in the past 12 months like David Jones. Think he went for £1m. Plus I seem to have forgotten about a certain Dirk Kuyt, so add £9m to the Liverpool net spend

Anyway, the important point is that the net spending for both managers since 2004 is very similar, possibly Benitez has spent a bit more.

This is the latest wage bill figures I could find.

2003/04 PREMIERSHIP WAGES (previous year in brackets)

Chelsea: £114.8m (£54.5m)
Man Utd: £76.8m (£79.5m)
Arsenal: £69.7m (£60.6m)
Liverpool: £65.6m (£54.4m)
Newcastle: £44.4m (£45.1m)

Last year's Deloitte survey said Utd were still second in the wage table.

[Sound]

Mikel?!?!

Come off the stage.

[STEVIEG]

Mikel?!?!

Come off the stage.

United received 12 million for him

[Roman Abramovich]

Hasn't happened United

Heard it all before

In fact i've been listening to the same arguments since about 1995
When united start finishing 4th then people can start talking about the end of the Fergie era.....

It's rare they finish 3rd not to mention 4th

its rare arsenal havent finished 2nd since wenger took over....considering the financial strangle of building a brand new stadium its even amazing.

[Roman Abramovich]

Open to correction but from what I can glean from t'INTERNET and memory, these were figures I came up with earlier in the week.

Rafa tactical genius

In
Luis Garcia £6m
Xabi Alonso £10.5m
Peter Crouch £7m
Sissoko £4.5m
Reina £6m
Agger £5.8m
Fowler -
Padelli -
Insua £1m
Brouwer -
Gonzalez £4.5m
Paletta £1m
Aurelio -
Anderson -
El Zhar -
Pennant £6.7m
Bellamy £6.5m

Out
Owen £16m
Cissé -
Hamann -

Fergie Ginsoak

In
Rooney £26m
Heinze £7m
Smith £7m
VDS £2m
Park £4m
Vidic £7.2m
Evra £5.5m
Carrick £16m

Out
Van Nistelrooy £10.2m
Djemba-Djemba £3.5m
Kleberson £2.5m
Obi Mikel £12m
Butt £2m
Forlan £3m
Spector £0.5m

Obviously, the Rooney and Carrick fees are guesstimates of how much they'll ultimately cost given the £10m and £4m that are performance related and based on Utd winning all sorts of trophies.

I've already noticed I've left out a raft of youngsters we sold in the past 12 months like David Jones. Think he went for £1m. Plus I seem to have forgotten about a certain Dirk Kuyt, so add £9m to the Liverpool net spend

Anyway, the important point is that the net spending for both managers since 2004 is very similar, possibly Benitez has spent a bit more.

This is the latest wage bill figures I could find.

2003/04 PREMIERSHIP WAGES (previous year in brackets)

Chelsea: £114.8m (£54.5m)
Man Utd: £76.8m (£79.5m)
Arsenal: £69.7m (£60.6m)
Liverpool: £65.6m (£54.4m)
Newcastle: £44.4m (£45.1m)

Last year's Deloitte survey said Utd were still second in the wage table.






2003/04???? 3 years ago....
how relevant is that wage bill ffs?

[Sound]

United received 12 million for him

I'm well aware of it but counting him in this context is ludicrous.

[STEVIEG]

its rare arsenal havent finished 2nd since wenger took over....considering the financial strangle of building a brand new stadium its even amazing.

Yup, Arsenal have done really well under Wenger

Second most succesful team In England in the last ten years I reckon

Only United have a better record

[STEVIEG]

I'm well aware of it but counting him in this context is ludicrous.

Why?

They signed him

He and Chelsea and others got involed in dodgyness

Chelsea paid United 12 mill as they were clearly in the wrong and wanted the player, who suddenly wanted to play for them

[Lamps]

Why?

They signed him

He and Chelsea and others got involed in dodgyness

Chelsea paid United 12 mill as they were clearly in the wrong and wanted the player, who suddenly wanted to play for them

United took Chelsea's blood money. They should have taken them ot court. Its all about money with United. They're a cancer on the game if you ask me

[KolaKubes]

Mikel?!?!

Come off the stage.

I'm well aware of it but counting him in this context is ludicrous.

Honestly, I'm intrigued. How is the £12m we received for the transfer of a player on our books to Chelsea not relevant to this? It was Utd that originally scouted the player, had him over on trial and training with the club. Kenyon left and proceeded to hand Chelsea our transfer wishlist including this lad and they went on to have a very "unusual" relationship with the player but nothing official.

We stepped in, offered him a pro contract, he signed, he "disappears" under death threats, shows up in London. Chelsea try and throw their weight around, Utd say "fuck off". Chelsea relent and buy the player off us.

2003/04???? 3 years ago....
how relevant is that wage bill ffs?

Deloitte charge for the newer figures. I wasn't too keen on going to that extent.

In any case, Utd' wage spending should have come down a little since then as well. Our squad has been trimmed considerably and some notable big earners like RVN and probably Butt and P. Neville have left.

[STEVIEG]

United took Chelsea's blood money. They should have taken them ot court. Its all about money with United. They're a cancer on the game if you ask me

Yes, Chelsea were wrong yet United are to blame.........

Because the FA or UEFA would have fined Chelsea 50,000 euros or given them a suspended worthless points deduction

The FA have tapped Chelsea wrists over

Ashley Cole
Frank Arneson (sp)
the young Leeds players
etc

United took 12 million of their rivals, bought Carrick and may well win the league

Obi and Chelsea deserve each other

[Edmund Blackwater]

I thought this thread was about the cl semi finals.
I missed them.
I heard the best teams
went through and that the best player in the world shone.
So it's a manyoo - chelsea final, yeah?

[KolaKubes]

Yup, Arsenal have done really well under Wenger

Second most succesful team In England in the last ten years I reckon

Only United have a better record

They're a nice little club. Best of luck to them for the rest of the season I say. ;)

[legend76]

"Great, great, great," ran the front-page headline of La Gazzetta dello Sport - one "great" for each goal in a 3-0 win on Wednesday that gave Milan a 5-3 aggregate semi-final victory over United.

Such was Milan's dominance of the second leg at San Siro that La Gazzetta highlighted the inexperience of United's young guns Wayne Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo in contrast to the experience of the Italian's team's older squad.
"Rooney: Overall a puppy dog compared to the lion of Old Trafford," the paper said in its player ratings, giving the striker, who scored twice in the first leg, 5/10.
"Ronaldo: Rabbit-like opposite the (lion's) roars of (Milan midfielder Rino) Gattuso," it said of the English players' Player of the Year, giving him 4/10.

[STEVIEG]

"Great, great, great," ran the front-page headline of La Gazzetta dello Sport - one "great" for each goal in a 3-0 win on Wednesday that gave Milan a 5-3 aggregate semi-final victory over United.

Such was Milan's dominance of the second leg at San Siro that La Gazzetta highlighted the inexperience of United's young guns Wayne Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo in contrast to the experience of the Italian's team's older squad.
"Rooney: Overall a puppy dog compared to the lion of Old Trafford," the paper said in its player ratings, giving the striker, who scored twice in the first leg, 5/10.
"Ronaldo: Rabbit-like opposite the (lion's) roars of (Milan midfielder Rino) Gattuso," it said of the English players' Player of the Year, giving him 4/10.

Big relief for the Italians to restore some national pride after the Roma game, match fixing scandals and crowd trouble

Fair enough assessment all the same

[xvis]

I wasn't aware that Liverpool played less games in the league than the rest.

Silly me.


I said Liverpool hadn't proven themselves as one of the best sides of their national association league.

...they haven't been fighting for a title for over a decade and a half.


Jose's jibe was that Liverpool knew they were incapable of mounting a title challenge, and therefore prioritised otherwise. ...I'd agree with that comment.

[Drop]

1565

[legend76]

Big relief for the Italians to restore some national pride after the Roma game, match fixing scandals and crowd trouble

Fair enough assessment all the same

if not a wee bit biased, must check out their headline on the day after the Roma game, doubt it was "Fuck!,Fuck!,Fuck!,Fu ck!,Fuck!,Fuck!,Fuck ! "

[STEVIEG]

if not a wee bit biased, much check out their headline on the day after the Roma game, doubt it was "Fuck!,Fuck!,Fuck!,Fu ck!,Fuck!,Fuck!,Fuck ! "

ha ha that's newspapers

PS, they did go heavy after the 7-1 it was seen as a national calamity and embrassment!

[KolaKubes]

My response with facts seems to have had certain bluffers running to the namecalling threads.

Well, how about Rafa has made it to two European Cup finals but been woeful domestically off the back of spending more than Fergie?

[MonTheHoops]

Well, how about Rafa has made it to two European Cup finals but been woeful domestically off the back of spending more than Fergie?

Would be interesting to see both NET spends over the period Benitez has been at the club.

His purchases are 50/50 if you ask me, but no one breaks the bank.

[Roman Abramovich]

My response with facts seems to have had certain bluffers running to the namecalling threads.

Well, how about Rafa has made it to two European Cup finals but been woeful domestically off the back of spending more than Fergie?

i say again.......post up the two squads they had when they started.
listen to a modern day equiv of what your saying dummy....

hypo.....
chelsea sign big sam as manager.
he adds a 10m player to the team
each season in 3 years.

man utd spend
60m on new players each year.....replacing scholes, giggs, neville, van dersar,

big sam leads chelsea to two more titles and two european cups...

how come fergie spends 60m and gets nothing and sam only spends 30?



as i said........post up the two squads they started that season with.
you refused to.

[Roman Abramovich]

Honestly, I'm intrigued. How is the £12m we received for the transfer of a player on our books to Chelsea not relevant to this? It was Utd that originally scouted the player, had him over on trial and training with the club. Kenyon left and proceeded to hand Chelsea our transfer wishlist including this lad and they went on to have a very "unusual" relationship with the player but nothing official.

We stepped in, offered him a pro contract, he signed, he "disappears" under death threats, shows up in London. Chelsea try and throw their weight around, Utd say "fuck off". Chelsea relent and buy the player off us.



Deloitte charge for the newer figures. I wasn't too keen on going to that extent.

In any case, Utd' wage spending should have come down a little since then as well. Our squad has been trimmed considerably and some notable big earners like RVN and probably Butt and P. Neville have left.

heh heh heh........and ye upgraded ron and roo and ferd and neville and saha
bet your wage bill is higher now than it was then.

[Lamps]

I know we have our differences Naff, but you've got Kola one step from pwnership here. a bad day for bumslapping

[Sound]

My response with facts seems to have had certain bluffers running to the namecalling threads.

Well, how about Rafa has made it to two European Cup finals but been woeful domestically off the back of spending more than Fergie?

I know it's a bit of a madhouse in here KK but you've totally lost the run of yourself including Mikel in those calculations.

[Actin The Sham]

I know it's a bit of a madhouse in here KK but you've totally lost the run of yourself including Mikel in those calculations.

Mikel was a united player and Chelsea paid United approximately (depending on exchange rates) €15 Million for him.


He signed a contract with United. I for one think he is going to be a very good player for Chelsea and they got him at a good price.

[KolaKubes]

10 Ruud Van Nistelrooy
18 Paul Scholes
11 Ryan Giggs
21 Diego Forlan
16 Roy Keane
15 José Pereira Kleberson
22 John O'Shea
8 Nicky Butt
7 Cristiano Ronaldo
12 David Bellion 1
13 Roy Carroll
17 Lopez Felipe Ricardo
23 Kieran Richardson
26 Danny Pugh
24 Darren Fletcher
25 Quinton Fortune
27 Mikael Silvestre
2 Gary Neville
6 Wesley Brown
5 Rio Ferdinand
3 Philip Neville
20 Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
1 Fabien Barthez
14 Tim Howard
19 Eric Djemba-Djemba
28 Mark Lynch


- Jerzy Dudek 24
- Chris Kirkland 10
- Scott Carson 4
- Paul Harrison 0
- Patrice Luzi Bernardi
No. NAME GS SB
- Jamie Carragher 38
- John Arne Riise 34
- Sami Hyypia 32
- Steve Finnan 29
- Steven Gerrard 28
- Sanz Luis Garcia
- Dietmar Hamann 23
- Milan Baros 22
- Xabi Alonso 20
- Djimi Traore 18
- Harry Kewell 15
- Gonzalez Josemi 13
- Fernando Morientes
- Mauricio Pellegrino
- Stephen Warnock 11
- Djibril Cisse 10
- Igor Biscan 8
- Antonio Nunez 8
- Neil Mellor 6
- Florent Sinama Pongolle
- Salif Alassane Diao
- Anthony Le Tallec
- Vladimir Smicer 2
- John Welsh 2
- Stephane Henchoz
- Darren Potter 0
- David Raven

[KolaKubes]

Mikel was a united player and Chelsea paid United approximately (depending on exchange rates) €15 Million for him.


He signed a contract with United. I for one think he is going to be a very good player for Chelsea and they got him at a good price.

To be honest, I'm not sure what part of this Sound has trouble with.

The guy would be playing for Utd now if Chelsea hadn't "obtained" him.

[RonnyB]

10 Ruud Van Nistelrooy
18 Paul Scholes
11 Ryan Giggs
21 Diego Forlan
16 Roy Keane
15 José Pereira Kleberson
22 John O'Shea
8 Nicky Butt
7 Cristiano Ronaldo
12 David Bellion 1
13 Roy Carroll
17 Lopez Felipe Ricardo
23 Kieran Richardson
26 Danny Pugh
24 Darren Fletcher
25 Quinton Fortune
27 Mikael Silvestre
2 Gary Neville
6 Wesley Brown
5 Rio Ferdinand
3 Philip Neville
20 Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
1 Fabien Barthez
14 Tim Howard
19 Eric Djemba-Djemba
28 Mark Lynch


- Jerzy Dudek 24
- Chris Kirkland 10
- Scott Carson 4
- Paul Harrison 0
- Patrice Luzi Bernardi
No. NAME GS SB
- Jamie Carragher 38
- John Arne Riise 34
- Sami Hyypia 32
- Steve Finnan 29
- Steven Gerrard 28
- Sanz Luis Garcia
- Dietmar Hamann 23
- Milan Baros 22
- Xabi Alonso 20
- Djimi Traore 18
- Harry Kewell 15
- Gonzalez Josemi 13
- Fernando Morientes
- Mauricio Pellegrino
- Stephen Warnock 11
- Djibril Cisse 10
- Igor Biscan 8
- Antonio Nunez 8
- Neil Mellor 6
- Florent Sinama Pongolle
- Salif Alassane Diao
- Anthony Le Tallec
- Vladimir Smicer 2
- John Welsh 2
- Stephane Henchoz
- Darren Potter 0
- David Raven

Kola by the time Rafa took over Liverpool, United had sold Barthez & signed Saha. Also Rafa bought a good few of those players himself so they wer'nt at the club before him, Nunez being the prime example.

[Lamps]

Kola by the time Rafa took over Liverpool, United had sold Barthez & signed Saha. Also Rafa bought a good few of those players himself so they wer'nt at the club before him, Nunez being the prime example.

Is KKK saying Alonso and Garcia were there before Benitez?:oops:

[KolaKubes]

Kola by the time Rafa took over Liverpool, United had sold Barthez & signed Saha. Also Rafa bought a good few of those players himself so they wer'nt at the club before him, Nunez being the prime example.

I thought I was being generous with my time even C&Ping that! :D It looks like the 03/04 squad maybe?

Anyway, close enough. I dunno what Roman wants to see it for anyway.

[KolaKubes]

Is KKK saying Alonso and Garcia were there before Benitez?:oops:

C&P.

Seeing as my whole point was about the cost of signing such players, I give you the rolly eyes.

:rolleyes:

[Lamps]

C&P.

Seeing as my whole point was about the cost of signing such players, I give you the rolly eyes.

:rolleyes:

I call Fitzy

[Professor Piehead]

Those three sides have established their credentials by doing the business over the run of a league campaign, ..and we know Liverpool have beaten them over three cup-ties.


...you don't address the point that Liverpool's squad haven't endured the stresses of a league winning campaign, and are somewhat fresher.



***

getting back to the format, I've felt that when expansion took place to bring in 2nd placed sides and then 3rd and 4th, that the entry criteria should have followed with as well as finishing in 2nd, or 3rd in the stronger leagues, that the side would have to have been champions in the previous 3 seasons, ...and are as such, still 'a champion team'. ...much in line with RonnyB's, but a bit stricter.


..it is the ultimate aim of the CL to produce the best team in Europe, and it will embarrass Uefa somewhat if LFC pull off number six, ..as this will clearly not be the case.
Liverpool are clearly not in the best two teams in their own country, ...and have not been for some time.

Get a grip.

[Professor Piehead]

I'll be honest

I don't have a major problem with the format

As far as changes are i don't think it's gonna happen ($$$$$£££££)



I think it's a Cup Comp and anything can happen

Liverpool could easily have lost by another at Anfield to Barca but they could have beaten them 4-0 too and deserved to progress

Chelsea should have tonked them at the Bridge but Liverpool were much better than the blues at Anfield

Liverpool deserved that tie

United's dodgy defensive situation looked set to come back to haunt them once they got injuries and though they got away with at Everton a really top European side made them pay last night

Overall, Milan well deserved to get there but it's Cup Football

Even at full strength United could have lost and i think Milan were worthy winners

Bar a few curious refering decisions Celtic coud have knocked them out previously and i thought they were there for the taking late in the game against Munich

Sure, the format favours those not firing domestically, but i don't think it's a major issue



Whoever gets to the final still deserves it IMO

One of these teams wil have to lose the game and explaining to their supporters why they are about 20 points of the title race

It's a gamble and whatever team suceeds, be they Milan or Liverpool, deserves to be Champpions of Europe

Excellent post. If you were not a man U fan I would want to love you and have your babies.

[KolaKubes]

Excellent post. If you were not a man U fan I would want to love you and have your babies.

If [insert random attractive star here] was a Man U fan, would you make an exception?

I bet you would. Where are your principles? ;)

[ubernerd]

Utd were awful last night.
Giggs was the number one problem.
Heinze was piss poor and Vidic obviously unfit.
I was shocked that he then took off O'Shea tbh, as despite an errant cross or two (as per usual) he was actually doing alright. What was Ferguson thinking?
Was he thinking?

Giggs didnt connect a pass all night and this seemed to transmit down the ranks.

There was no one to inspire the team.
Ronaldo was at a different match than the one we were all watching.

Utd looked depressed and worn out. Milan, quite expectedly, stood off utd for the first 20 mins of the second half and it was then utd should have gone for it, but they failed to do so despite Scholes showing up. Otherwise Milan were outstanding and some of the passing, movement and shots were actually a joy to watch, even if they were at utd's expence.

Did utd and chelski cancel each other out of Europe this year through the really hard fought league campaign?

Best of luck to the 'pool but I wont be shouting for them (no matter how heroically they perform).

I think Milan, on form, will destroy them.
Sorry :)

[Professor Piehead]

If [insert random attractive star here] was a Man U fan, would you make an exception?

I bet you would. Where are your principles? ;)

Sorry Kola, no. If Miss World said 'ride me ragged big boy' and I knew she was a united fan, the answer would be 'feck off you bosted slut'. Principles intact.;)

[STEVIEG]

Sorry Kola, no. If Miss World said 'ride me ragged big boy' and I knew she was a united fan, the answer would be 'feck off you bosted slut'. Principles intact.;)

That makes me sleep a bit easier at night

[ho chi feen]

This is my champs league fantasy football team, it illustrates the way I saw the semis going...

http://i19.tinypic.com/674gw0y.jpg


Gutted I didn't include Seedorf.

Rather odd that you have the great Wrongaldo in your team, Ed.

[ho chi feen]

Out
Owen £16m
Cissé -
Hamann -


Liverpool only got 8m for Owen, afaik...

[KolaKubes]

Liverpool only got 8m for Owen, afaik...

So that means we're really talking about Liverpool outspending Utd by nearly £20m?

Excellent.

The new mantra starts here, moneybags Chelsea and Liverpool against the purists of Utd and Arsenal producing quality football on a budget. ;)

[Philby]

My response with facts seems to have had certain bluffers running to the namecalling threads.

Well, how about Rafa has made it to two European Cup finals but been woeful domestically off the back of spending more than Fergie?

The current United side has been built up by Fergie over many many years..it is his side. It is chock-full of expensive signings (e.g. Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo and countless others no longer at the club who were bought for top dollar) the like of which Liverpool have rarely been able to lash out.

Rafa walked into a club with a set of playing staff that he largely didn't rate. A huge chunk of that squad had no future under Rafa and the only thing on his mind was how quickly he could offload both them and their strain on the wage bill. As I said on a previous thread only this year is this starting to become even vaguely a Benitez side in terms of personnel.

I've had my say on counting the Mikel transfer from Lyn to Chelsea as a legitimate Utd sale in the past...

I don't dispute that it's a fact but it's more down to luck & circumstance than prudent financial planning. That's the crux of the point I'm making.

Everytime the subject of transfer expenditure comes up this fact is mentioned, often as an excuse for paying OTT for Carrick and the likelihood that the same again will be done for Hargreaves this summer.

The implication is that the squad was so good that they could afford to let players go at a profit & either not replace them or replace them at lesser amounts than were taken in from sales..which wasn't the case.

Counting the £12m Chelsea paid for United to not dispute his transfer from Lyn Oslo as transfer income is as invalid as Chelsea counting their £300k fine for tapping up Ashley Cole as transfer expenditure.

Ok, this stat about Utd making a net profit in transfers during the summer is being trotted out a bit too much for my liking.

The fact is that Chelsea were clearly up to no good and, out of fear of possible UEFA sanctions, shat themselves and threw silly money (£12m) at Utd to walk away from the Mikel deal...judging on Mikel's performances to date it was a wise move to take the money & keep their gobs shut.

This £12m in blood money from Chelsea was hardly part of utd's business plan & made a huge contribution to Utd making a profit on transfers..I'm not sure Utd should be patting themselves on the back for their financial prudence when the only reason they turned a transfer profit over the summer was Chelsea's viewpoint that they were above the law..

[st finnbar]

Liverpool today have bought the great dutch 17 year prospect uleague bottler, has signed a 9 year contract:D

[wat_boy]

very funny! how long did it take ya to come up with that one?

[ho chi feen]

The current United side has been built up by Fergie over many many years..it is his side. It is chock-full of expensive signings (e.g. Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo and countless others no longer at the club who were bought for top dollar) the like of which Liverpool have rarely been able to lash out.

Rafa walked into a club with a set of playing staff that he largely didn't rate. A huge chunk of that squad had no future under Rafa and the only thing on his mind was how quickly he could offload both them and their strain on the wage bill. As I said on a previous thread only this year is this starting to become even vaguely a Benitez side in terms of personnel.

I've had my say on counting the Mikel transfer from Lyn to Chelsea as a legitimate Utd sale in the past...

He was a United player, they had to pay us to take him off our hands. Things could hardly be any clearer. We wanted the fucker, but then it all went messy.

[KolaKubes]

He was a United player, they had to pay us to take him off our hands. Things could hardly be any clearer. We wanted the fucker, but then it all went messy.

I'm at a loss to understand the boys on this one. We even had his signature like.

[xvis]

I'm at a loss to understand the boys on this one. We even had his signature like.

He signed a contract with united, he was a United player...


The end result effectively sorted it out as we gave Oslo £4m and Chelsea gave us £16m. ....seems simple enough to figure out, and United are £12m in net profit from the deal.

[KolaKubes]

He signed a contract with united, he was a United player...


The end result effectively sorted it out as we gave Oslo £4m and Chelsea gave us £16m. ....seems simple enough to figure out, and United are £12m in net profit from the deal.

We'd still be better off with the player. He looks a great prospect if he can knuckle down and stop being such a nob.

[RonnyB]

We'd still be better off with the player. He looks a great prospect if he can knuckle down and stop being such a nob.

True. There was no way he was worth £16m til Chelsea cam in and kidnapped him or whatever his reasons were for disappearing.

Also to all those Pool fans who say "ye hardly budgeted for the £12m from Chelsea" I'll put it to ye this way. If Mikel had joined United and kept himself in check behaviour wise I dont think £20m odd of this years transfer kitty would be going on a certain Canadian.

But then never let the facts get in the way or an arguement.

[Sound]

True. There was no way he was worth £16m til Chelsea cam in and kidnapped him or whatever his reasons were for disappearing.

Also to all those Pool fans who say "ye hardly budgeted for the £12m from Chelsea" I'll put it to ye this way. If Mikel had joined United and kept himself in check behaviour wise I dont think £20m odd of this years transfer kitty would be going on a certain Canadian.

But then never let the facts get in the way or an arguement.

So a hypothetical situation can be expanded into a fact?

Jog on.

[Sound]

I enjoy Rob McNichol's Referee365 column usually, but I felt my age when I read his critique of my take on decisions in the Liverpool v Chelsea game, because having qualified as a referee when Chelsea were in the Second Division, Paul Ince was a West Ham hero and goalkeepers could pick up back-passes, I lived through things that are largely forgotten and inadequately recorded.

Rob objected to my claim that the linesman had ignored "the ruling that the benefit of the doubt should got to the attacker" when disallowing Dirk Kuyt's "goal", saying "there is no rule (or law) that stipulates benefit of doubt to the attacker".

No, it's not written down in the laws, because it shouldn't have been needed. But back in the day it was needed and was issued and the reasons still apply.

On every single decision, the benefit of the doubt should go to the view that nothing has happened - no foul, no goal, no ball out of play - unless you're sure. But across time linesmen started to assume, under pressure,that if, say, the Arsenal back four appealed in unison for offside then you had to be certain it wasn't offside not to raise your flag. And when did the Arsenal back four of the Eighties not appeal in unison?

Italia 90, when officials who were usually referees ran the line much of the time, produced a host of plainly incorrect offside calls in matches where the cameras offered proof, without the need for computers drawing virtual lines across the pitch. There were fewer televised league games then and with less technology present, so it needed cock-ups on the global stage to force action.

David Platt's England career took off with his last-gasp volley against Belgium, but he may not have had the chance to score that goal had John Barnes not had a pearler ruled out when a good two yards onside in normal time.

So, not that long afterwards, there was a reminder sent out and written about:
the benefit of the doubt is always that no offence has taken place, so when it
comes to offside it goes to the attacker.

I saw ITV's freeze frame and did not find in it conclusive proof that Kuyt was leading by a short head; there's a good reason why the photo finish for a horserace is taken on the line itself. Rob said the linesman had a good view but he didn't see that freeze frame and, given the impossibility of looking in two different directions simultaneously and the speed of the travelling objects, it's plain he took a guess.

"Benefit of the doubt to the defence" was an unwritten rule that was wrong. "Benefit of the doubt to the attacker" is now an unwritten rule that is right.

Rob also disagreed with my view that Kuyt should have been booked for his deliberate foul on John Obi Mikel in the build-up to Daniel Agger's goal. "Unsporting behaviour" is in the eye of the beholder, so there's no right or wrong there. But in looking at Kuyt's foul, Rob cited the clash between Ashley Cole and Steven Gerrard, where the former blocked off the latter.

"If that is a foul preventing a goal," Rob wrote, "then we'll have a penalty for Ashley Cole shepherding a ball out for a goal-kick but 'impeding' Steven Gerrard."

There are all sorts of problems with this. First, "impeding the progress of an opponent", what used to be called obstruction, is punishable by an indirect free-kick so a penalty is out of the question. It's a bit odd, but that's what the laws say.

Second, though I didn't write about Cole v Gerrard, had I done so I would have said it should have been an indirect free-kick to Liverpool. And if, as Rob said, old directives don't apply, I wonder if he can find anything in the laws of the game about shepherding the ball out of play?

"If a player covers up the ball without touching it in an endeavour not to have it played by an opponent, he obstructs but does not infringe Law XII para 3 because he is already in possession of the ball and covers it for tactical reasons whilst the ball remains within playing distance. In fact he is actually playing the ball and does not commit an infringement..."

That's what it used to say in Decision 7 of the International Board under Law XII. Though the lawmakers took that section out some while ago when they simplified the rules, referees still act as if it was there.

Perhaps it has been buried in another section of the laws that I haven't found, but if you don't imagine that that para is still there, then shepherding is not legal even "whilst the ball remains in playing distance" and everyone attempting it should be penalised.

I would have given an indirect free-kick against Cole because the ball was very quickly not in playing distance and he carried on impeding Gerrard. But certainly not a penalty.

[RonnyB]

So a hypothetical situation can be expanded into a fact?

Jog on.

Well the fact was United got £12m for a player who they signed. Ye rubbished the validity of the transfer wit records United's net transfer spend as if it shouldnt be counted.

[STEVIEG]

So a hypothetical situation can be expanded into a fact?

Jog on.

hypothetically speaking

Young Mikel would have been a handy guy to have in the squad this season

He is clearly quality

But he is also clearly a cunt who in my opinion made the wrong choice, so i'm happy that they got 12 million for him in the end

[lionelhutz]

He signed a contract with united, he was a United player...
.

not always the case. all sorts of factors can render a contract void.

anyway this argument is typical pubes talking through his hole. utd keep smashing transfer records to sign players. keane, rvn, rio, rooney, veron, carrick to name a few. huge amounts of dough on these guys in recent years. only a clown like pubes would try and rely on this fuckin argument. fergie had nearly two decades of managment with utd under his belt when benitez joined liverpool. the latter obviously started from scratch, offloaded a lot of deadwood at a loss, bought some more deadwood unfortunately, but also strengthened in key areas, ALL at moderate prices. counting the mikel fiasco as some shrewd piece of business by fergie is retarded. it was either sell him on or have the little prick lounging around doing jack shit not wanting to play for the manc. you cant get away from the fact, that being something which is true, as opposed to conjecture, that fergie has consistently broken transfer records to get players for essential positions, added of course to a freakishly good bunch of young players who are now on the threshold of retirement. it appears that he may splash big again on hargreaves. who knows maybe chelsea will come in for him too and buy him out at a profit

[Philby]

It was my understanding that Chelsea paid Utd £12m to walk away from Mikel and they then paid Lyn £4m for the player. The transfer took place between Lyn & Chelsea, not Utd and Chelsea. Can anyone confirm?

[xvis]

not always the case. all sorts of factors can render a contract void.

If the contract was void, United wouldn't have recieved a penny. so....



We'd still be better off with the player. He looks a great prospect if he can knuckle down and stop being such a nob.

true, but as he expressed a desire to play for Chelsea, ...there was no point in pursueing it.

...it's a testament to what Fergie has done, that Ballack and a few others may be questioning their choices from 15 months ago.


I think Chelsea are under big pressure now as regards team direction, Ballack and Sheva signed as 30 year olds, and as it takes a year to adapt to the Prem, ..so next year do they stick with them or re-arrange further?

[STEVIEG]

...it's a testament to what Fergie has done, that Ballack and a few others may be questioning their choices from 15 months ago.


I think Chelsea are under big pressure now as regards team direction, Ballack and Sheva signed as 30 year olds, and as it takes a year to adapt to the Prem, ..so next year do they stick with them or re-arrange further?

Mikel, Robben, Ballack, Essien and Peter Kenyon



I'd still like Essien though:)

[Philby]

It was my understanding that Chelsea paid Utd £12m to walk away from Mikel and they then paid Lyn £4m for the player. The transfer took place between Lyn & Chelsea, not Utd and Chelsea. Can anyone confirm?

Seriously, can anyone offer any clarification on this? I'm not on a wind-up. I'm genuinely of the opinion that this is the way it happened which is why I've been questioning the merit in including the £12m as transfer incomings.

[xvis]

Seriously, can anyone offer any clarification on this? I'm not on a wind-up. I'm genuinely of the opinion that this is the way it happened which is why I've been questioning the merit in including the £12m as transfer incomings.

"Under the terms of this agreement, Chelsea will pay Manchester United £12m, half payable now and half in 12 months, and Lyn £4m, half payable now and half payable in 12 months' time," said a United statement.

A statement from Chelsea said: "As a result of this settlement all claims in this matter, which Chelsea were never an official party to, are now withdrawn.

"The payments do not in any way imply the acceptance of any such claims and have been made solely so that Mikel can resume his career.

"United will support Chelsea in any work permit application, if necessary.


"All parties have agreed that there will be no further comment on the settlement or any of the allegations or claims."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/5043096.stm

...just your run-of-the-mill tranfer wrangles.

United £12m in the kitty. ...no further questions entertained by all parties!

[Philby]

Clear as mud then :-)

[Edmund Blackwater]

...it's a testament to what Fergie has done, that Ballack and a few others may be questioning their choices from 15 months ago.
?
This is a nothing, bullshit statement that is typical of manyooers and illustrates why they are despised by all football fans.

[xvis]

This is a nothing, bullshit statement that is typical of manyooers and illustrates why they are despised by all football fans.


heh heh




The Kaiser has said all season the Ballack made a mistake, ...Berlusconi ditto for Sheva,

..at the end of the day, any big player who has decided to go to the Bridge is performing in front of 40,000 fans in a poor atmosphere when they could be at the San Siro or the Bernebeu, ..all because they thought that Jose was the footballing Messiah, ..and the last couple of weeks have damaged that.



..the same with Obi Mikel, he hought United were finished, ..as did much of this board.

heh heh

[Edmund Blackwater]

heh heh




The Kaiser has said all season the Ballack made a mistake, ...Berlusconi ditto for Sheva,

..at the end of the day, any big player who has decided to go to the Bridge is performing in front of 40,000 fans in a poor atmosphere when they could be at the San Siro or the Bernebeu, ..all because they thought that Jose was the footballing Messiah, ..and the last couple of weeks have damaged that.



..the same with Obi Mikel, he hought United were finished, ..as did much of this board.

heh heh
So, the Kaiser and Berlusconi each regret losing one of their top players.
Nothing from Ballack and Sheva?

Mikkel says he was a Chelsea fan.
:wink:

[Forsberg]

This is a nothing, bullshit statement that is typical of manyooers and illustrates why they are despised by all football fans.

Sure apparantlly Alan Shearer cries himself to sleep every night cos he chose Newcastle over United

[Edmund Blackwater]

Sure apparantlly Alan Shearer cries himself to sleep every night cos he chose Newcastle over United
I love that manyoo fans hate him so much.
In reality, I suppose he probably cost them at least one more big cup by signing for newcastle.

[xvis]

Nothing from Ballack and Sheva?


not necessary,

..their facial expressions for the last 8 months says it all.

[Forsberg]

I love that manyoo fans hate him so much.
In reality, I suppose he probably cost them at least one more big cup by signing for newcastle.
You can't blame them though really.


He would have been the difference in Europe for them .. Shearer is the reason why Fergie will never be regarded as a great manager. ;)

[Edmund Blackwater]

not necessary,

..their facial expressions for the last 8 months says it all.
So, not only have you telepahtic powers, you're also a body language expert too.
And all this from a barstool 600 miles away



For the record, I think ballack has had a decent enough season.

[KolaKubes]

Seriously, can anyone offer any clarification on this? I'm not on a wind-up. I'm genuinely of the opinion that this is the way it happened which is why I've been questioning the merit in including the £12m as transfer incomings.

Utd had Mikel's signature on a pre-contract agreement to join Utd as soon as the season was over with Lyn. Obi Mikel's "advisers" and "other interested parties" then conspired to have the player disappear from Lyn and turn up (ironically enough) at Chelsea. After efforts to argue all sorts - such as the player being coerced into joining Utd - failed, the player was in the situation of being frozen out of football until he acquiesced to join Utd.

Chelsea (whose position throughout was that they had no involvement with the player) then offered to pay Utd to drop their claim on the player and Lyn to compensate them for the loss of the player. This paved the way for Obi Mikel to join Chelsea.

However, the circumstances were that Obi Mikel was contracted to Lyn and had signed an agreement to join Utd so the money was to buy him out of both.

I don't see what the difference is between that and a common or garden transfer fee myself.

[xvis]

So, not only have you telepahtic powers, you're also a body language expert too.
And all this from a barstool 600 miles away



For the record, I think ballack has had a decent enough season.


for the record I think Sheva has had a mare.


Ballack being thrown in with Lampard has been the predictable undoing of Chelsea.

[KolaKubes]

I love that manyoo fans hate him so much.
In reality, I suppose he probably cost them at least one more big cup by signing for newcastle.

I think Shearer was one of the best strikers I've ever seen. Would have loved to have him at Utd but c'est la vie.

[POL]

I've never the bum slappers take such a beating as over the last two days, brings a tear to me eye so it does

[Lamps]

I've never the bum slappers take such a beating as over the last two days, brings a tear to me eye so it does

StevieG : I've seen most of the Milan CL games

1 hr later after I proved that MIlan played the same time as ManYoo

StevieG: I saw some of the quarter final(still not fully clarified either) and highlights of other games(i.e. the goals on rte)

Love it

[KolaKubes]

I've never the bum slappers take such a beating as over the last two days, brings a tear to me eye so it does

If you do say so yourself.

I was wondering if you'd left myself, so quiet have you been for weeks.

I understand now.

Pathetic. At least the Pool fans will come on after a disappointment.

Take the night of May 23rd like... ;D

[Edmund Blackwater]

Rather odd that you have the great Wrongaldo in your team, Ed.
I thought there was a chance that he might not blast one ofhis free kicks into the wall.
I also thought he might get away with a few dives in the box, however he never got into the box.
I was right about everything else.

[Professor Piehead]

I thought there was a chance that he might not blast one ofhis free kicks into the wall.
I also thought he might get away with a few dives in the box, however he never got into the box.
I was right about everything else.

:)

[STEVIEG]

..the same with Obi Mikel, he hought United were finished, ..as did much of this board.

heh heh

The Bum Slappers may not be cheerleading so much next week if United wrap up the title

I suspect, they may be quieter

[STEVIEG]

Sure apparantlly Alan Shearer cries himself to sleep every night cos he chose Newcastle over United

Nah, i'd say he is happy out

Sky repeat "The Premiership Years 1995" every few months...........

[STEVIEG]

I think Shearer was one of the best strikers I've ever seen. Would have loved to have him at Utd but c'est la vie.

True

and Ole and Cole won the lot so United didn't do too bad

[wat_boy]

the champions league 3rd and 4th place playoff is to be played at wembley and it will be called the fa cup!:p

[jimmy magee]

Sky repeat "The Premiership Years 1995" every few months...........

what a great season that was too.:p

Kenny got the mix just right.. Scottish granite centre half, Two rugged fuckers centre mid, Out and out wingers, and the SAS up front

The glory days!

http://libsyn.com/media/okeydokefootball/walker-shearer.jpg

[lionelhutz]

If the contract was void, United wouldn't have recieved a penny. so....



listen bucksfizz its possible to argue the same set of facts 2 completely separate ways. its called legal argument. from what i recall of the fiacso the chump claimed he was being put under undue pressure to sign for utd. that left an argument open to rendering the contract void ab initio thus leaving it open for him to sign for chelsea. utd obviously claimed the opposite and said the contractual relationship was fine. roman took out his wallet to solve the legal impass.