are there any world class footballers...

[liam2me]

playing today, and i'm talking maradonna, pele, remembered in 50 years time world class players, personally i don't think there is

[Philby]

I think Ronaldo has been good enough for long enough (while perhaps not fully making use of his undoubted talent) to be at least remebered & rated in 50 yrs. Not up there with Maradona, Pele etc. but a truly world-class player who excelled at the highest level.

[liam2me]

zidane can be added but he retired also co could be added, arguably, bergkamp and cantona, still playing i doubt there is anyone though

[Forsberg]

zidane can be added but he retired also co could be added, arguably, bergkamp and cantona, still playing i doubt there is anyone though

Cantona and Bergkamp don't even come close to the leve of Pele and Maradona. Zidane is the only player of my genereation who comes even close . Currently playing , Ronaldo, maldini iare the only players who will be remembered as all time greats.

I'm obviously not including the young guns like , Messi , Rooney or the mock Ronaldo cos who knows what they will do in their career

[MonTheHoops]

The thing is, Zidane wasn't the talent we all know him to be until he was in his mid to late twenties so give the young pretenders to the throne some time at least.

Pele, Maradona, Zidane.......I think it's fair to say that each generation is lucky to see one genius.

There'll always be world class players, regardless of how bad the standard drops, because they'll still be the best in the world. Those mentioned above were out of this world.

[liam2me]

The thing is, Zidane wasn't the talent we all know him to be until he was in his mid to late twenties so give the young pretenders to the throne some time at least.

Pele, Maradona, Zidane.......I think it's fair to say that each generation is lucky to see one genius.

There'll always be world class players, regardless of how bad the standard drops, because they'll still be the best in the world. Those mentioned above were out of this world.
ok, rephrase it, how many of todays crop would make it into a best ever team? ok given, the young guns need time to prove themselves but the english team, for example, are the most overrated players on the planet, none of them would make a best ever 11.

we get major influence from british media, but places like italy, germany, spain, france, brazil, argentina, etc none of them would consider england as a major threat

[MonTheHoops]

ok, rephrase it, how many of todays crop would make it into a best ever team? ok given, the young guns need time to prove themselves but the english team, for example, are the most overrated players on the planet, none of them would make a best ever 11.

we get major influence from british media, but places like italy, germany, spain, france, brazil, argentina, etc none of them would consider england as a major threat



No not even him ;)

I really don't know. It's very easy to look back on players with rose tinted glasses too. When people recall guys like Maradona etc they never speak too often about the rubbish performances he put in for Barcelona.

[liam2me]

No not even him ;)

I really don't know. It's very easy to look back on players with rose tinted glasses too. When people recall guys like Maradona etc they never speak too often about the rubbish performances he put in for Barcelona.
my old man reckons that pele is hugely overrated compared to maradonna, was before my time but he said the year(s) maradonna won the WC, the rest of the team were shit and he carried them through, and that argentina were screwed out of another WC when the were beat by germany, klinsmann did something dodgy, can't remember. whereas pele always had class players around him. is this accurate or not?

[MonTheHoops]

my old man reckons that pele is hugely overrated compared to maradonna, was before my time but he said the year(s) maradonna won the WC, the rest of the team were shit and he carried them through, and that argentina were screwed out of another WC when the were beat by germany, klinsmann did something dodgy, can't remember. whereas pele always had class players around him. is this accurate or not?

The Brazil 1970 side was class in every position while Maradona did have a lot of good players around him in 86 he really did win it single handedly. Same went for his time at Napoli - won them the league completely on his own.

As for the German game, nothing dodgy really went on, just the worst team won on the day. Germany, from memory, were horribly negative on the day & won with a penalty. I was young at the time though so memory might be way off there.

Pele still scored over 1000 career goals which is no mean feat thoguh I do think Maradona is the best ever.

[liam2me]

The Brazil 1970 side was class in every position while Maradona did have a lot of good players around him in 86 he really did win it single handedly. Same went for his time at Napoli - won them the league completely on his own.

As for the German game, nothing dodgy really went on, just the worst team won on the day. Germany, from memory, were horribly negative on the day & won with a penalty. I was young at the time though so memory might be way off there.

Pele still scored over 1000 career goals which is no mean feat thoguh I do think Maradona is the best ever.
but didn't pele play in some lower standard leagues?

[MonTheHoops]

but didn't pele play in some lower standard leagues?

Today they'd be a lower standard, back then they would have been a much higher standard.

[aahjay]

my old man reckons that pele is hugely overrated compared to maradonna, was before my time but he said the year(s) maradonna won the WC, the rest of the team were shit and he carried them through, and that argentina were screwed out of another WC when the were beat by germany, klinsmann did something dodgy, can't remember. whereas pele always had class players around him. is this accurate or not?

Not quite true. The 86 team was class all the way through. Maradona would have added to any team in history, but he had a very good squad around him.

If I remember that is :)

Edit: It was the 1990 team that he carried on his own

[liam2me]

Today they'd be a lower standard, back then they would have been a much higher standard.
fair enough. you been watching tevez at west ham? the man has potential to be in the world class catagory.

[MonTheHoops]

fair enough. you been watching tevez at west ham? the man has potential to be in the world class catagory.

Yeah he's done well but it'll be a long while yet before he reaches those heights.

[liam2me]

Yeah he's done well but it'll be a long while yet before he reaches those heights.
he was hinting that he would like to stay at west ham regardless of whether we stay up or not, he's a fan favourite which is the opposite to the other clubs he's been at, which he says is a huge thing for him. i wonder will MSI let him stay, i reckon magnusson will splash out for him

[ho chi feen]

As for the German game, nothing dodgy really went on, just the worst team won on the day. Germany, from memory, were horribly negative on the day & won with a penalty. I was young at the time though so memory might be way off there.

Young'uns!

It was the Argies played shite, cynical, negative football that day- as they'd done for the entire tournament. Not a great display by the Germans ei ther, but they were by a good way the better team.

Think I remember one of the Argie's being sent off, exaggerated contact, but a foul alright... can also remember a spectacular Klinsmann swandive- not the same incident though, as far as she serves...

[Superdave]

Young'uns!

It was the Argies played shite, cynical, negative football that day- as they'd done for the entire tournament. Not a great display by the Germans ei ther, but they were by a good way the better team.

Think I remember one of the Argie's being sent off, exaggerated contact, but a foul alright... can also remember a spectacular Klinsmann swandive- not the same incident though, as far as she serves...

2 argies saw red that day if my memory serves me right. V poor tournament and it was indeed the argies that played negatively throughout. Germans were actually the more creative side.

To go back to the thread title. You could probaby gauge it by asking which current playesr would make the all time World XI. I reckon Maldini is the only one. Probably a decent shout for Cafu too.

[Eoin]

Young'uns!

It was the Argies played shite, cynical, negative football that day- as they'd done for the entire tournament. Not a great display by the Germans ei ther, but they were by a good way the better team.

Think I remember one of the Argie's being sent off, exaggerated contact, but a foul alright... can also remember a spectacular Klinsmann swandive- not the same incident though, as far as she serves...

Yeah, the final that year(in fact the whole tournament that year, looking back on it without the green-tinted glasses) was awful. Lots of diving and dirty tackles going in and won with a peno from Brehme I think.

Definitely a far cry from the great match in 86.

[ho chi feen]

2 argies saw red that day if my memory serves me right.

Yup, you're right.

Thought Yugoslavia were the best side (from a purists point of view) in the tournament, but the Argies poxed their way past them on penalties. The Czechoslovaks played some lovely stuff too.

How about Italy, they concede one goal in the whole tournament (not counting the play-off with England) and it's the one that brings the game to pennos against Argentina, which they lost. The match took place in Naples, and DIF/Eurotrash Kid tells me that more people at the game were cheering for Argentina than Italy because of Maradona.

[farranreeboy]

Leo Messi

[Superdave]

Yup, you're right.

Thought Yugoslavia were the best side (from a purists point of view) in the tournament, but the Argies poxed their way past them on penalties. The Czechoslovaks played some lovely stuff too.

How about Italy, they concede one goal in the whole tournament (not counting the play-off with England) and it's the one that brings the game to pennos against Argentina, which they lost. The match took place in Naples, and DIF/Eurotrash Kid tells me that more people at the game were cheering for Argentina than Italy because of Maradona.

At 12 i can't really recall much but the yugoslavs were impressive. Dragon Stoickovic? I also recall the austrian keeper - lindenberger? - being savage. There were few lights at that world cup mind. Cameroon perhaps.

i've heard the opposite about the semi though and that the italians booing the argie national anthem was a big part of the reason diego left soon afterwards.

[Eoin]

Leo Messi

He's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too young to judge.

He's an exciting player no doubt, but it'll be a few years before he's considered as one of the greats of the game.

[Superdave]

He's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too young to judge.

He's an exciting player no doubt, but it'll be a few years before he's considered as one of the greats of the game.

agreed. could turn out to be another ariel ortega!

[Forsberg]

Yup, you're right.

Thought Yugoslavia were the best side (from a purists point of view) in the tournament, but the Argies poxed their way past them on penalties. The Czechoslovaks played some lovely stuff too.

How about Italy, they concede one goal in the whole tournament (not counting the play-off with England) and it's the one that brings the game to pennos against Argentina, which they lost. The match took place in Naples, and DIF/Eurotrash Kid tells me that more people at the game were cheering for Argentina than Italy because of Maradona.

I dunno about the Yugolsalv's being the best team .The one abiding memory I have ofthat world cup (apart from the ole ole brigade) is Germany , and Matthaus i paricular giving them a footballing lesson in one of the group games and beating them 4-1 . Matthaus got two . fantastic goals as well. I still reckon that that W Germany team would beat any international team that has come after it ,including France 98-2000 , although it'd be some game

Yugoslavia did have some very talented young players though- Prosinecki , Stoicovic, Boxic , Savecivic.

[ho chi feen]

At 12 i can't really recall much but the yugoslavs were impressive. Dragon Stoickovic? I also recall the austrian keeper - lindenberger? - being savage. There were few lights at that world cup mind. Cameroon perhaps.

Yeah, you're talking the core of Croatia's superb 1994-1998 side, along with the Serbs- plus a couple of greats who were long gone by the time Croatia or Serbia got to play on the world stage, and Slovenia's Srecko Katanec. Not to mention the Red Star side that won the Champion's Cup the following season. I firmly believe they would have won the 2002 European Championships if they hadn't been kicked out at the last minute (although it's also quite conceivable that they'd have killed each other).

[FL4ZGN]

The Brazil 1970 side was class in every position while Maradona did have a lot of good players around him in 86 he really did win it single handedly. Same went for his time at Napoli - won them the league completely on his own.

As for the German game, nothing dodgy really went on, just the worst team won on the day. Germany, from memory, were horribly negative on the day & won with a penalty. I was young at the time though so memory might be way off there.

Pele still scored over 1000 career goals which is no mean feat thoguh I do think Maradona is the best ever.

Andrea Carnevale may have something to say about that. I think Careca arrived in 87 and altough his first season was not great the rest of his time at Napoli proved very good indeed.

In saying that, Maradona for me was the best player ever.

Surprised Lothar Matthais hasnt got a mention as being one of the best players of his generation.

And also dont forget a certain Zico.

[FL4ZGN]

fair enough. you been watching tevez at west ham? the man has potential to be in the world class catagory.

People were saying the same about Saviola when he was 18/19/20.

[ho chi feen]

Andrea Carnevale may have something to say about that. I think Careca arrived in 87 and altough his first season was not great the rest of his time at Napoli proved very good indeed.


Aye, you're not wrong there. And anyone who calls the great Ciro Ferrara average or poor is either forgetful or knows nothing about football. Di Napoli was also a fine player, and they had a young Gianfranco Zola in the ranks for their 1990 title-winning side.

[FL4ZGN]

Aye, you're not wrong there. And anyone who calls the great Ciro Ferrara average or poor is either forgetful or knows nothing about football. Di Napoli was also a fine player, and they had a young Gianfranco Zola in the ranks for their 1990 title-winning side.

Did you know that in 1986 Argentina had a player who could have qualified to play with Ireland?

[Eoin]

Did you know that in 1986 Argentina had a player who could have qualified to play with Ireland?

Was that yer man Jose Luis Brown(I think, the memory is very hazy)?? I think I heard something about that before alright.

[ho chi feen]

Yeah, you're talking the core of Croatia's superb 1994-1998 side, along with the Serbs- plus a couple of greats who were long gone by the time Croatia or Serbia got to play on the world stage, and Slovenia's Srecko Katanec. Not to mention the Red Star side that won the Champion's Cup the following season. I firmly believe they would have won the 1992 European Championships if they hadn't been kicked out at the last minute (although it's also quite conceivable that they'd have killed each other).

Ooops. fitzy/typo alert.

[ho chi feen]

Was that yer man Jose Luis Brown(I think, the memory is very hazy)?? I think I heard something about that before alright.

But his roots were Scottish, AFAIK.

Guess it could be both though.

[Forsberg]

Aye, you're not wrong there. And anyone who calls the great Ciro Ferrara average or poor is either forgetful or knows nothing about football. Di Napoli was also a fine player, and they had a young Gianfranco Zola in the ranks for their 1990 title-winning side.

They had Alemáo as well in that title winning team . There is this romantic notion that Maradona won everything by himself , which is blatantly not true. There's no doubt that the he was the backbone of thos Napoli and Argentina teams , but both had some fantastic players as mentioned above

[ho chi feen]

They had Alemáo as well in that title winning team . There is this romantic notion that Maradona won everything by himself , which is blatantly not true. There's no doubt that the he was the backbone of thos Napoli and Argentina teams , but both had some fantastic players as mentioned above

Yes.

You only have to look through Argentina's 1986 side to give the lie to that myth. Burruchaga, Valdano, Ruggieri... that's just off the top of my head.

It's usually wheeled out in Pele V Maradona debates. What gets my goat is the arrogance in berating Pele staying with Santos for his entire career- as if European football was always streets ahead of South America- in an era where many great South American players were happy to ply their trade on their home continent, and when their top clubs were a match for anything in Europe.

Red herrings.

[FL4ZGN]

They had Alemáo as well in that title winning team . There is this romantic notion that Maradona won everything by himself , which is blatantly not true. There's no doubt that the he was the backbone of thos Napoli and Argentina teams , but both had some fantastic players as mentioned above

Valid point but in getting Argentina to the final of the world cup in 1990 one could say that he did it almost single handedly.

[Eoin]

Yes.

You only have to look through Argentina's 1986 side to give the lie to that myth. Burruchaga, Valdano, Ruggieri... that's just off the top of my head.

It's usually wheeled out in Pele V Maradona debates. What gets my goat is the arrogance in berating Pele staying with Santos for his entire career- as if European football was always streets ahead of South America- in an era where many great South American players were happy to ply their trade on their home continent, and when their top clubs were a match for anything in Europe.

Red herrings.

Yeah, I think the reason that a lot of people our age say Maradona was better is that we actually got to see him playing on a regular basis, between the world cups and his stint in Italy when they were showing the Italian football on RTE. Its extremely difficult to compare 2 players like that from different eras.

[ho chi feen]

Valid point but in getting Argentina to the final of the world cup in 1990 one could say that he did it almost single handedly.

While playing completely shit too.

No, I don't dispute that he turned a good Argentina side (1986) into a brilliant side by dint of his own genius- ditto Napoli. But it's not fair to say they were shit teams either, as some do.

[FL4ZGN]

While playing completely shit too.

No, I don't dispute that he turned a good Argentina side (1986) into a brilliant side by dint of his own genius- ditto Napoli. But it's not fair to say they were shit teams either, as some do.

I agree ho chi.

But he was the greatest player that i have watched in my lifetime. Without question.

[ho chi feen]

Yeah, I think the reason that a lot of people our age say Maradona was better is that we actually got to see him playing on a regular basis, between the world cups and his stint in Italy when they were showing the Italian football on RTE. Its extremely difficult to compare 2 players like that from different eras.

Yeah, I agree completely. It's a fair debate, but shit like his woeful stint at Barcelona gets swept aside, the red herrings about Pele and Santos, the myths about Argentina and Napoli having no other good players. Also, the fact that he wasted his talent and underachieved in the end becomes a virtue, but if you were going to use that kind of logic you're getting into Best was the greatest of all time/Gascoigne was better than Zidane territory. I think there's a definite bias in our age group towards Maradona. For those old enough to remember seeing both play there's probably a very slight bias towards Pele. Of course, in those days, you didn't get to see the greats playing week in week out like we do since the post Italia '90 thing... Serie A, then the Premiership and of course La Liga.

Impossible for us to say really .

I have a feeling that Alfredo di Stefano had the measure of both of them. By all accounts, he was something special- a man who could (and did) play anywhere and excel.

[ho chi feen]

I agree ho chi.

But he was the greatest player that i have watched in my lifetime. Without question.

Ditto.

[Eoin]

I have a feeling that Alfredo di Stefano had the measure of both of them. By all accounts, he was something special- a man who could (and did) play anywhere and excel.

Exactly, people like him or even the likes of Puskas or Stanley Matthews could have been better than both, but there's very little footage of them to try and compare.

[FL4ZGN]

Duncan Edwards?

If he was good as they say he was.

[STEVIEG]

Unfortunately Duncan Edwards never got the chance (RIP)

A lot of the revisionism about Pele is annoying and unfair

Sometimes he is almost like a Paul McCartney figure who has done himself no favours by being still around and often acting the tool aswell-that said he is still a good ambassador for football

The man is quite simply a football God who did it from the beginning to the end of his career and at HUGE stages (i.e. World Cups)

He got kicked around the place with no protection and was more or less kicked out of one World Cup and it probably cost Brazil but he crowned his career in 1970 by being a crucial team player in the team that for me epitomises all that is good about the Beautiful Game

[nemesis]

Pele brings an awful lot of it on himself by being a whore for advertising companies.

[STEVIEG]

Pele brings an awful lot of it on himself by being a whore for advertising companies.

My point exactly

But that has nothing to do with his impact on the pitch

If he had died in 1971 he would be seen as a much bigger legend than he is now

[liam2me]

People were saying the same about Saviola when he was 18/19/20.
true but he has to start somewhere, maradonna has gone on the record as saying he's the "Argentinian prophet for the 21st century". thats extreme, but i do think he will be class

[MonTheHoops]

true but he has to start somewhere, maradonna has gone on the record as saying he's the "Argentinian prophet for the 21st century". thats extreme, but i do think he will be class


Maradona, like Pele, says that about EVERY emerging talent.

[liam2me]

Maradona, like Pele, says that about EVERY emerging talent.
dunno, but i think no matter what team he plays in today he would have an impact, he didn't get all thos awards in south america for nothing but as with any young player, we'll see